A Cry For Justice

Awakening the Evangelical Church to Domestic Violence and Abuse in its Midst

Nancy Leigh DeMoss Says Women Victims Must Reverence Their Abuser!

The following is a review of one of Nancy Leigh DeMoss’ books that seems to keep finding its way into our churches and women’s study groups, Lies Women Believe.  At the Amazon site (scary place as there are 128 reviews, 72 of which are 5-star), a lady named Esther Brown posted this review.  What a great job she did!  I tried to contact her and thank her, but was unable.  I hope she doesn’t mind us putting her review here as well.  Esther, if you’re out there, thank you. Following the review, Barbara Roberts makes some insightful comments from her own experience of abuse and how DeMoss’ teachings would have devastated her.  (And thanks to Katy for pointing this book out to us) –

Esther Brown’s Amazon Review of  Lies Women Believe: by Nancy Leigh Demoss

Let me say first that I’m a wife (married 15 months) and a Christian woman. I was given this book by a relative as a wedding gift, and because I respect her views, I went ahead and read through the book. I don’t like to be negative, but this book is so dangerous to women that I felt compelled to show potential readers what you’re getting into.

Perhaps her most horrific claim had to do with the situation of spousal abuse (a term which she limits to physical abuse; emotional abuse is apparently irrelevant):

“There are extreme situations where an obedient wife may need to remove herself and/or her children from proximity to her husband, if to remain in that setting would be to place themselves in physical danger. However, even in such a case, a woman can — and must — maintain an attitude of reverence for her husband’s position; her goal is not to belittle or resist him as her husband but, ultimately, to see God restore him to obedience. If she provokes or worsens the situation through her attitudes, words, or behavior, she will interfere with what God wants to do in her husband’s life and will not be free to claim God’s protection and intervention on her behalf.” (p.149)

DeMoss is saying that abused women should stay with their husbands in all but the most extreme cases, avoiding “belittling” the man who is actively harming her. Moreover, if she has any kind of negative attitude about the fact that she’s being abused, then she “will not be free to claim God’s protection.” This dangerous doctrine means that not only should women continue to live in harmful situations, but they are encouraged to blame themselves for “provoking” that abuse.

DeMoss’s un-Biblical views extend to her false vision for women’s lives, which conflicts with that of Bible heroes like Deborah, Priscilla, and Miriam:

* “The modern-day feminist movement was birthed and has been sustained by persuading women to march and clamor for “rights” […] However, I am convinced that the claiming of rights has produced much, if not most, of the unhappiness women experience today.” (p.74)

* “The Scripture is clear that a married woman’s life and ministry are to be centered in her home. This is not to suggest that it is necessarily wrong for a wife and mother to have a job outside her home — unless that job in any way competes with or diminishes her effectiveness in fulfilling her primary calling at home. […] The Truth is that God gave to the man the primary responsibility to be the “breadwinner” for his wife and children.” (p.127)

* “In the apostle Paul’s first epistle to Timothy, we are reminded that childbearing is a basic, God-given role for women. […] A woman’s willingness to embrace, rather than shun, her God-given role and calling (“childbearing”) is a necessary fruit that will accompany genuine salvation — it is proof that she belongs to Him and follows His ways.” (p.171)

In other words, women don’t need and shouldn’t pursue legal protections. They should stay at home, having as many babies as possible, and anything otherwise means that they’re not “genuinely saved.” (Note that I fully support women who choose that path for their own lives — what I contest is the idea that the Bible mandates this as the only appropriate destiny for women.)

Ultimately, though, the foundation for DeMoss’s toxic views is a vast over-generalization of the source of women’s unhappiness. DeMoss begins the book by describing the Christian women she knows: “burned-out, overwhelmed, defeated, depressed, ashamed, emotionally unstable, angry, frustrated, discouraged, lonely, fearful, … and, yes, even suicidal.” (p.16) I agree with this assessment, and I long for the good news of God’s love to bring hope to their lives. But the solution is not telling a depressed, lonely, and suicidal woman that “we do not hate ourselves, nor do we need to learn to love ourselves. We need to learn how to deny ourselves, so we can do that which does not come naturally — to truly love God and others.” (p.70)

Some women certainly could use to hear the message of self-denial, but many of us have been pressured all our lives to deny ourselves and love God, to the point where we begin to forget the reciprocal message: God loves us in return. If DeMoss could view her readers through Jesus’ eyes, I suspect that she would realize that lecturing them to be better child-bearing automatons will not ease the emptiness and loneliness in their hearts. I only pray that this book will not irreparably harm too many women who read it in search for a “truth” it does not contain.

Barbara Robert’s Comment on DeMoss:

De Moss says:

There are extreme situations where an obedient wife may need to remove herself and/or her children from proximity to her husband, if to remain in that setting would be to place themselves in physical danger. However, even in such a case, a woman can — and must — maintain an attitude of reverence for her husband’s position; her goal is not to belittle or resist him as her husband but, ultimately, to see God restore him to obedience. If she provokes or worsens the situation through her attitudes, words, or behavior, she will interfere with what God wants to do in her husband’s life and will not be free to claim God’s protection and intervention on her behalf.  (p.149)

If I had read that paragraph after I went to court for a protection order against my husband, it would have slid into my soul like a poisoned knife. That day in the court corridor I believed I’d ceased to be a daughter of Sarah (1 Peter 3:6) by giving way to my terror and going to court for protection from my husband. I felt like I’d been disobedient to God and stepped outside his covering by resisting my husband with such a glaring act –  an act that I felt was necessary but which I knew would belittle and shame my husband dreadfully. Then the church denounced me for applying for the order – Do Not Take A Brother To Court! was the elders’ stern rebuke, so they certainly thought I’d worsened the situation by going to court, and they lectured me on my sins against him (example of my sins? I made my husband feel spiritually inadequate by reading my daughter’s nightly Bible story to her in the lounge-room while my husband was watching TV [hey, I only did that during winter when her bedroom was freezing!] ). I was locked in an emotional logjam of fear, terror, shame, guilt, anger and fury. How dare he; how dare they! And I’ve stepped over into the abyss!

If I’d read Nancy de Moss’s words the log jam would have done a quantum leap into hyperspace. How could I possible maintain an attitude of reverence for my husband’s position when he had been so terrifying and full of lies? And when no one believed how dangerous and deceitful he was?

***

Update:  November 2015 Nancy Leigh DeMoss married and now goes by the name Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth.

93 Comments

  1. Katy

    Yes that’s the part I read in the women’s Bible study that caused me to throw that book in the trash. I am convinced that Nancy must be operating under some evil spirit, to think that her commandments to women = God’s attitude toward us.
    God have mercy on the women of his church. We are truly in dire straits when our own female “teachers” treat us like the Taliban would. Jesus save us!!

  2. Anonymous

    Exactly Barb!

    “In the apostle Paul’s first epistle to Timothy, we are reminded that childbearing is a basic, God-given role for women. […] A woman’s willingness to embrace, rather than shun, her God-given role and calling (“childbearing”) is a necessary fruit that will accompany genuine salvation — it is proof that she belongs to Him and follows His ways.” (p.171)

    Well Nancy, if that proves your Salvation, then what on earth are YOU doing?!? Deceiving all of us?

    She is not married, nor does she have any children. What happened, because she says here, that it is necessary fruit that accompanies genuine Salvation. Isn’t this a little like “works salvation”? I understand the aspect of fruit following Salvation, but where exactly, other than the list of the fruit of the Spirit, does it actually command a woman to bear children to prove her Salvation; and how dare you, Miss DeMoss – what about all the childless Christian couples, who cannot bear children. Does that mean they are not Christ’s? Perhaps Miss DeMoss would be happy to deny herself a little happiness, and give up asking for the 1.5 million she needs to keep herself happy in her business.

    These type of broad and sweeping statements and this oppression assisting for abusers, is just outrageous. I actually have, uh had, that book. It went in the sale items stack, and then I decided to remove it from there and put it on the burn pile, because I don’t want any other woman reading it and being oppressed. I actually believed the “lie” book and swallowed whole another “lie” instead. Barb’s words describe exactly what happened to me, from reading this book. I became more confused, more oppressed and worked just that much harder, to make certain I did everything perfect, laying down my life, contrary to what Scripture teaches, and giving everything I could possibly give to keep things “happy”. It broke me even further and just enhanced the abuse, but I hung in there, believing the lie that it must be me or my attitude. Why couldn’t I just get it right? Why was God so angry with me? Was it really God abusing me through my husband, because I was such a disappointment to Him?

    I am happy to know that the truth is coming to the surface and that other women will be delivered from at least one oppressive book that lines the shelves at our Christian book stores, among many others.

  3. Anonymous

    I need to make something clear here. I am not saying that anywhere in the Bible does it say that a fruit of the Spirit is bearing children. I worded that wrong. I meant to say, “where in the Bible does it say that we are only saved if we bear children? The list in Scripture of the fruits of the Spirit, does not contain that as a fruit. Sorry for any confusion.

  4. Oh, I am so appalled and reminded of the battered women I went to church with who were counselled to wait for him to come to Jesus. This is poisonous, because women feel as if their salvation depends on obeying this nonsense.

    • Jeff S

      Yes: “If you love Jesus then you will endure.”

      Of course they don’t say it’s a salvation issue, but what else is the victim to conclude?

  5. Katy

    I tried to tell them over on Challies blog that this attitude is poisonous (perfect word for it). I told them, at one point I was thinking that if my husband murdered me it must be God’s will. There is no other logical conclusion to take from all of this nonsense, and they just don’t CARE!

    • Jeff Crippen

      Katy – That is an interesting point, isn’t it? We try to explain why it is that pastors and people like DeMoss and others just blow off victims of abuse when they seek help. What you have noted here is something that may well be one of the most fundamental explanations – they just don’t care. And if that be the case, then what does the following Scripture lead us to conclude about them-

      Matthew 25:40-46 And the King will answer them,’Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
      Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
      Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
      Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

      • Katy

        and how terrified should they be? That they ignore the oppressed and the victims, and preach only to those who satisfy their gender rules. 😦 We could easily make that into a salvation issue as well, couldn’t we?

    • Jeff Crippen

      Yes, I just took a visit over there at Challies’ blogsite. DeMoss seems to be quite popular there. Comments on her Lies book are closed so I couldn’t make one. Here is the thing we all need to be very careful about. Challies is well-known. His blog endorses books and authors – so it all must be good stuff, right? Not!

      • Diane

        Well, Tim Challies thinks a bit highly of himself…imo. He is also a grand supporter of CJ Mahaney and SGM. In fact, at his T4G Band of Bloggers live blog panel last spring, the topic came up about CJ Mahaney and how the internet has changed things and people find out things (like SGM survivor blogs posting the horrid accounts of abuse, and the Detweiler documents about Mahaney) and “gossip and slander” about them on the internet. Challies’ reply to that “problem” was this statement, “Can’t we just be willing to remain in ignorance?” (regarding the sexual abuse and spiritual abuse scandal concerning SGM). No investigating for yourself… or blogging about it.

        He likes to be “informing the reforming”… so he gets to know all kinds of things to blog about…even searches the web far and wide in order to post things to keep his record going of blogging every single day for three thousand and some days…(who really cares)…but WE need to remain in ignorance. Does he include himself in the we?

      • Jeff Crippen

        So Diane, you emphasize an important point. Just WHO is Tim Challies anyway? Some guy who started a blog. Tweaked the right buttons and got quite the following. But is Challies a superior being? I would re-phrase the question and turn it back on him — “Why then are we having this T4G Band panel? Because why should we care about what you think? Are you saying that WE ignorant masses should entrust these higher things to you?” This is the very bad dynamic that happens when these popularity machines get rolling. They get out of hand. Something like the quote from the commander in The Hunt for Red October:

        This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.

        Here is the Word of God on how we are to view people:

        Galatians 2:6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality) – those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me.

      • Katy

        “Challies’ reply to that “problem” was this statement, “Can’t we just be willing to remain in ignorance?””

        Diane I am floored by this. Absolutely floored. I stumbled on Challies blog a while back, and I’d never heard of SGM or any of that stuff. How can a man of God wish for the congregation to be ignorant of the evil deeds of its leadership? Is that the model of Paul? these are dangerous people with huge followings. I can’t get over this.

      • Tim Challies asks “Can’t we just be willing to remain in ignorance?” (regarding the sexual abuse and spiritual abuse scandal concerning SGM).
        No Tim, we can’t be willing to remain in ignorance, not when the Bible commands us to take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Eph. 5:11)

        This sounds to me like the bible prohibits fence sitting. If you don’t expose the works of darkness, you are taking part in them by condoning the secrecy in which they flourish.

    • Barnabasintraining

      and they just don’t CARE!

      You know what, Katy? That’s really it, right there. They need to ask themselves what it is they are believing that causes them to not care because “I don’t care about you” is not a fruit of the Spirit. But then, if they already don’t care they aren’t likely to do that. :/

      They remind me of the Ephesian church from Revelation who had all their doctrinal ducks in a row and would not tolerate error, but had left their first love. I get the sense that the Ephesian church had become a hard, cold, “theologically correct” place to be that would judge you faster than you could say boo. Paul says if we don’t have love we are as noisy gongs. How deeply ironic and tragic that Paul prayed the Ephesians would know the love of God which passes knowledge and that they would be filled with the breadth, width, height, and depth of it! Yet the end of that church was that Christ took their lamp stand away. 😦

      I wish these men would take heed, but what happens when they don’t care?

  6. Jeff Crippen

    Just a little bio blurb from Wikipedia:

    “Nancy Leigh DeMoss is a Christian radio host and author. She is the host of the radio shows Revive Our Hearts and Seeking Him, which are heard on nearly 1,000 radio stations. DeMoss is a graduate of the University of Southern California where she earned a degree in piano performance. Since 1980, she has served on the staff of the Buchanan, Michigan based revival ministry, Life Action Ministries. Nancy Leigh DeMoss has authored 15 books which have sold over 2,000,000 copies.”

    So you see the huge influence this woman has. And people will swallow what she says simply because she is so well-known and successful.

    • Katy

      Why is she so successful though? You’d think that people wouldn’t flock to her. I just can’t understand the success of so many of these Pharisee types. Maybe the answer would be revealed in the demographic of people who buy her books.

      • Jeff Crippen

        Well, she’s rich isn’t she? Famous family.

      • MeganC

        I wonder, also, if Nancy doesn’t give women a “way” to be holy. It is very tempting to think, “Oh . . . if I DO thus and such, I’ll be holy! And here is another book that can help me do stuff.” It is sort of like our own little version of making sacrifices to God — instead of turtledoves or lambs, we offer things like . . . having lots of kids . . . suffering in our marriage . . . being the “best wife” we can be . . . submission . . . home schooling, etc. I’m not saying that is what we ALL do or that these things are inherently bad. But, it would be tempting, if I believed in a works-salvation. And, sadly, God is not pleased with sacrifice. He doesn’t want it that way.

        And then, the second part to that temptation is that “we” get to point our finger at others if they aren’t doing these things successfully and we feel we are.

      • MeganC

        Ugh. Forgot to tick the box. 🙂

      • Diane

        DeMoss roots go deep in evangelicalism. She is an heiress. Her dad, Arthur S DeMoss, was a pioneer in the direct marketing health/life insurance business and made a ton of money, evidently. He died in 1979 when she was in her early twentys.

        http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Arthur_S._DeMoss_Foundation

        See the photo I linked in my comment in the previous thread to see Nancy’s mother’s home in Florida. (Her mother’s name is Nancy too.) The Arthur S Demoss foundation, of which Nancy Leigh is a director, provides grants for many Christian orgs: CRU, Liberty U are biggies…as examples. Oh—her Revive Our Hearts program is sponsored by Life Action Ministries, which has been a past recipient of million plus dollar grants from her father’s foundation. I would guess they still are. Nancy is also listed and pictured on the website at Life Action as an author and speaker.

        Here is an interesting story I found while trying to find out who these people are and where they came from and their connections and agenda, from New York Magazine written in 1988.

        “Sermon Soda Water: A Rich Philedelphia Widow Wants To Save New York Society”
        (It is interesting–about Mrs. Arthur S DeMoss.)

        http://books.google.com/books?id=seUCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=arthur+demoss+bryn+mawr+estate+Laurier&source=bl&ots=RoWJhrvPPf&sig=cUR_nVie0cWnbSg9C_HpQpp7FUg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lY7pUKj8M8f6qwG_h4CQAg&sqi=2&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=arthur%20demoss%20bryn%20mawr%20estate%20Laurier&f=false

        Imo, Nancy does not need to be begging for 1.5 million dollars for a “year end need” (from her readers who are less fortunate than she) for a radio program sponsored by her family’s foundation through Life Action. I find that very disturbing.

        I just see such disconnect with her and the common woman. She has no experience in marriage and the fact that she would even make such an out of touch with reality statement like “revering” your abusive husband shows she really has not a clue what she is doing teaching women about this. And that is dangerous and abusive. (There are also hints of a history of promoting dominionist movements with the DeMoss name and money. All the more reason to stay away.)

        I am so sad for the women who listen to her and follow her advice…some of what she says might be good…but man, oh man, there’s just too much error mixed with anything good and that makes it too much work to navigate through.

        OK—that’s all I know. 🙂

      • MeganC

        That’s GOOD STUFF, Diane!!

      • Barnabasintraining

        Why is she so successful though? You’d think that people wouldn’t flock to her.

        I have no idea, Katy.

      • Jeff S

        “I wonder, also, if Nancy doesn’t give women a “way” to be holy. It is very tempting to think, “Oh . . . if I DO thus and such, I’ll be holy!”

        I think this is spot on, and I know I’ve fallen victim to this mentality in the past. I will gravitate toward the person who will have me flog myself the most because it just feels so darn holy and tough. I mean real Christians must believe in and follow tough doctrines that will shock the world right? It sound horrible to say out loud, but I know I’ve been there and done that. If uncertain, always go with what is more self defeating and painful. It’s all just a way to earn our salvation by being more tough than the next person, but as good as it looks, it has no real power. Paul sure had something say about this kind of thing, didn’t he?

      • Anonymous

        Maybe it’s because it gives people the “I can do it” thought and perhaps people can just get blinded by it and fall into the “works” mentality, not realizing that is what is happening? I don’t know, but when someone presents a “fix it plan” to someone looking for a “fix it plan”, it might just be too easy to buy into it.

      • Why is she so successful? Here are some guesses. I think all of them could apply.

        1. Anyone who has power to distribute funds from a very wealthy foundation can call the shots. Universities, colleges, ministries, Christian media organisations that receive grants from the foundation… that’s a lot of favours you can call in when you want to. You can get your books and your ministry promoted without seeming to do any paid advertising. I scratch your back you scratch mine.

        2. Abusers who occupy pulpits and other positions of influence will keenly promote Nancy’s books even if they are not beholden to Nancy or her money. They do so because they know her teachings will tie heavy burdens on victims’ backs, making it easier for them to keep the their victims under control.

        3. Conservative Christians have been so dyed in the wool of both virtuous suffering and submission to male leadership, that they submit to Pharisaic teaching without blinking an eye. We really are sheep. Sheep don’t think, they just follow the mob.

        4. In conservative Christian circles, female leadership has only been tolerated by male leaders when the female leaders come from ‘the legitimate female classes’:– The Married-and-Faithful Woman class, or the The Never-Married Mother Superior class. The women that don’t come from those classes are not allowed influential leadership because they don’t fit the type and they might rock the boat. After all, chaps, it would be such a bad show it we let them take the stage with their mottled histories and imperfect complexions!

      • Barnabasintraining

        3. Conservative Christians have been so dyed in the wool of both virtuous suffering and submission to male leadership, that they submit to Pharisaic teaching without blinking an eye. We really are sheep. Sheep don’t think, they just follow the mob.

        I think this is it. We are pickled in this doctrine.

    • I think she played her piano at our church. People that swallow her jagged little pill just worship status without really knowing that the status is what sucked them in. By then its too late because her status elavates the most idiotic statements into some sort of meaningful advice. Like at our church the head Pastor if he spoke, it could of been about “How to make pot stickers while catching the big game” and people would shout out “Praise God” just because it was him, and he had not even started yet, he was just doing his normal “See what a down to earth normal guy I am” routine THEN he would start the mind dumbing blah, blah, blah…..with the intermintent piano playing softly in the background while the spot light hit, just softly enough to enhance his emotional pleas to give to the missionarys that did not want to fly coach to South Africa…no wonder people had a hard time listening to Jesus? He did not have a degree in piano performance, he was not friends with the Kennedys and he talked to all the WRONG people!! Jesus has however sold more copies of his book I bet.

      Im not thinking Nancy Leigh and I would be BFF’s.

  7. Diane

    Katy~

    I shall try to find the audio to the Band of Bloggers for T4G 2011. I’ll post it for you if I find it.

  8. Diane

    “Much as a greenhouse is designed to nurture young plants and protect them from influences that might damage their tender roots, the climate of our home was carefully controlled to minimize influences that could possibly be unwholesome (we did not own a television or take a paper, for example) and to provide constant nurture in the Word of God.”

    Nancy Leigh DeMoss interview from Carolyn Mahaney’s blog.

    http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/Nancy_Leigh_DeMoss_The_Interview_Pt._1

    • Jeff Crippen

      You know what that sounds like to me? Weird! A carefully controlled climate that is isolated. Hmmmm….. where have we heard that tactic before?

      • Anonymous

        Isn’t that like asceticism? The Bible warns us about doing that sort of thing.

  9. Brian

    I know my red flag goes up when I see mega- ministries with huge followings. Lots of money at stake, and that money is not going to help people with great need. That’s the nature of large organizations….hierarchy, power, control via fear. Not a place to grow your faith and walk in the Light.

  10. Diane

    Katy —

    Here is a link to the Band of Bloggers…it was 2012 not 2011 –my apologies. (I do not promote this websit but it was one that was easier to get to a specific time in the audio rather than having to listen to the whole audio if you did not wish to do that.) Tim starts the SGM quote at about the 38 min mark but start at 37 to get more context. The whoe audio is enlightening if any are intereste. Just click on the arrow in the bar below the article.

    http://timmybrister.com/2012/04/2012-band-of-bloggers-audio/

    • Diane

      Wow—I needed the typo police with that last post.

  11. Barnabasintraining

    A woman’s willingness to embrace, rather than shun, her God-given role and calling (“childbearing”) is a necessary fruit that will accompany genuine salvation — it is proof that she belongs to Him and follows His ways.” (p.171)

    The problem with this is subtle and yet plain to see. I assume she is using the radical third wave feminist movement as her antithesis, yet in doing so she overstates the matter and condemns women who have trusted Christ crucified for their salvation, in whom the Holy Spirit works the fruit of Galatians 5, and who have also been willing to embrace their singleness that God has called them to (and even have the unmitigated gall to find contentment and fulfillment in!), those who willingly embrace the limitations of their health which identify childbearing as profoundly unwise, those who follow Paul’s injunction to forgo marriage even as he did because of the difficulty of their circumstances (though this is usually seen in other parts of the world where being a Christian could easily mean your life), and probably other categories that do not fit this tidy, sanitized Christianesque theme. What about single women who have deliberately chosen to serve God on the mission field instead of getting married?

    A woman embracing her “God-given role and calling” to be a mother is NOT a necessary fruit of salvation, unless this quote is taken out of context and DeMoss is referring to some specific woman to whom God has revealed this is His specific will for her life. Then she could make that argument. However, I understand her to mean this to be applicable to all Christian women everywhere at all times and in all places. If it were for all women everywhere at all times in all places, Paul would have never said “The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit…so then he who gives her in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better.” Paul puts the matter of whether to marry (and hence have children) or not to marry in the realm of preference formed from wise consideration, NOT necessary fruit of salvation.

    However, it is plain that anyone reading this is going to get the impression DeMoss is saying if you don’t want kids, you’re not saved.

    • Jeff Crippen

      Barnabas – If DeMoss were a Catholic, I think she would be a nun. I have been giving some thought to this. There are formal nuns in the Roman Catholic church, but what, we should ask, is the mentality behind this? It isn’t biblical, that’s for sure. Sacrificing oneself in a kind of marriage to Christ, launching out on a life of self-denial. But is it the kind of taking up one’s cross and denying oneself that Jesus meant? Ok, what I mean is, is it possible that this same mentality is present in evangelicals who believe that DeMoss’ self-sacrificial life pattern she is pushing is a higher level of service to Christ? And is it possible then that the same desire that works in a woman to lead her to take a nun’s vows is working in many of the women who follow DeMoss? It seems to me that the most vulnerable women can be the ones who truly love Christ the most and are willing to lay down their lives for Him. So, along comes a leader like DeMoss and lays out a plan and system whereby they can do this very thing.

      Let me modify my opening statement. If DeMoss were Roman Catholic, she would be a mother superior. The irony is that in her evangelical form of nunnery, she teaches that these sisters have lots and lots of children.

      I realize these comments might be offensive to a Roman Catholic, so let me say my point here is not to attack Catholics. My critique is aimed at DeMoss and her unbiblical teachings that enslave women in abuse.

      • Katy

        wow. I would never have thought of it, but it makes sense. It makes total sense. The evangelical Mother Superior. I think you’ve finally called it by name Jeff. 🙂

      • Katy

        OH ! I just remembered – the woman who was leading our bible study and picked out Nancy’s book for us – she was a former Catholic. She was a very very devoted, disciplined Catholic for most of her life until she woke up to the idea that salvation wasn’t works based….and yet she really really enjoys Nancy Leigh DeMoss….oh it’s all becoming clearer isn’t it?

      • Anonymous

        Besides, if she were a nun, she would have to take an “oath of poverty” for the rest of her life and sell all she now owns and give it away to the poor or to the Catholic Church, not certain which.

  12. Katy

    This is completely bizarre. Is Nancy above the rest of us, and so child-bearing and marriage are only for other women? lol

    Diane – regarding Challies and the whole entourage of SGM – they are sick puppies and I won’t ever give them a red cent or buy their books. I’ve never been a fan of mega ministries or cults of personality – we can clearly see where that gets us, both in the secular world and within Christianity. I saw someone call the latest book by that Driscoll guy as “youth group pablum for adults having a midlife crisis” – and I couldn’t agree more.

    This business of women having to take abuse (but not be allowed to read scripture out loud in church) just seals it. Did you see that wild quote from Piper on how muscular women are not embracing proper womanhood? lolllll

    You get to a point where you’ve got to laugh at these people.

    • Diane

      Well, I agree that we need to warn people about these men.

      And, I am sick reading this I just found…from a Revive Our Hearts program “When Marriages Hurt”. She really does remind me of a RC nun Jeff, one that really wans to suffer for Jesus. Nancy says:

      Now, Paul says in Romans 12:18: “If it is possible, as much as it depends on you, live peaceably with all men.” Now, that suggests that there are some places where it’s not possible because the other person is not willing to be part of that peace process.

      But he’s saying that if that marriage is going to break up, make sure it’s not because you didn’t pursue peace. Make sure it’s not because you were the one spurring on the conflicts or you were the one pursuing the break up of the marriage.

      When I say that I know that I am talking to some women who if they obey that Scripture to seek peace and pursue it in my marriage, that means maybe the rest of their lives, here on earth, in a difficult, struggling marriage where they will never experience the kind of love and relationship and intimacy that God wants marriage to have.

      For some that sounds maybe like a death sentence. In a sense it is because all of life comes through dying. If you want to have the fullness of Christ’s life living in you, then you have to be willing to go to the cross with Him. There is no breakthrough into the fullness of life without going through the cross.
      http://www.reviveourhearts.com/radio/revive-our-hearts/when-marriages-hurt-1/

      Run, run, run as fast as you can away from this false teacher and take as many as you can with you. Jesus went to the cross FOR us. He gives us fullness of His life when we believe on His name. In fact, we have every spiritual blessing — drink this in!!

      Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Eph 1:3-14

      • Jeff Crippen

        Diane – Here is a KEY Scripture that explains this bent within human beings to be drawn to an authoritative, arrogant spiritual teacher. It happened among the Corinthians, and Paul admonishes them for it here –

        2 Corinthians 11:18-20 ESV
        (18) Since many boast according to the flesh, I too will boast.
        (19) For you gladly bear with fools, being wise yourselves!
        (20) For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.

        See, they were wise themselves. As a result, their own arrogance led them to reject the Word of God and be duped by these false shepherds who came along lording it over them, abusing them putting on airs, and so on. We all have to guard against this. We must humble ourselves and think like Christ thinks, else we will be attracted to the “big shots” who crank out the books and make a big name for themselves. I guess we are like autograph seekers, and we want to tag onto these types to share the fame.

      • Jeff S

        “For some that sounds maybe like a death sentence. In a sense it is because all of life comes through dying. If you want to have the fullness of Christ’s life living in you, then you have to be willing to go to the cross with Him. There is no breakthrough into the fullness of life without going through the cross.”

        Yup- heard variations of this one over and over again. I even had an email paying for my breakthrough of giving myself over to Jesus and finding true brokenness (because I hadn’t been really broken yet).

      • Can any of our readers draw? I would love to see a sketch or cartoon of someone who is broken getting broken even more by being ploughed over by a Pharisees’s team of oxen.

      • Jeff S

        “When I say that I know that I am talking to some women who if they obey that Scripture to seek peace and pursue it in my marriage, that means maybe the rest of their lives, here on earth, in a difficult, struggling marriage where they will never experience the kind of love and relationship and intimacy that God wants marriage to have.”

        And here is the reality: you are calling women to suffer at your pleasure, not God’s.

      • And if you are calling women to suffer at your pleasure, not God’s, who are you working for?

        Satan wants us to suffer at his pleasure. So is there any reason why we shouldn’t conclude that folks like DeMoss are working for the enemy?

  13. Anonymous

    So, how do we know then, what suffering, when it comes, is from Christ and what is just from the enemy and his workers?

    • Still scared( but getting angry)

      I don’t know a clear way to know. If a way to get out is provided…( Moses comes and says let’s go, angel strips off chains and leads you out) but Job had to endure for a season and in the earthquake, Paul..( memory here I don’t want to get up and leave my warm nest) during the earth quake stayed at the jail to minister to the jailor. I think prayer and discernment and knowing God, His character and not trusting “helpful advisors” like Job’s without really digging. Daily knowing a walking with God, it’s easier to see and hear what He is about. I think that is why Job knew his advisors were wrong.

    • Jeff Crippen

      In one sense of course, everything is from the Lord. He decrees all things that come to pass. Pharaoh and the devil can do nothing that is a surprise to Him. But neither is God the author of evil. Wickedness is always from the world, the flesh, or the devil. God cannot sin. He does not produce sin. No one can say when they are tempted that the temptation is from God (James). So in that aspect, NO suffering is from the Lord. It is not His will that there is suffering in this world. That is why Christ has come to redeem us and to reconcile the cosmos to God.

      Paul had that thorn in the flesh. It was a messenger of Satan. And yet God allowed it to keep Paul humble. Job’s suffering was the same. It was from Satan, and allowed by God. If we suffer, it is the same for us. God permits it. He uses it for our good.

      So I think the real question here is not whether the suffering is from the enemy or from the Lord, but whether or not we are to stay in that suffering or flee from it or take steps to stop it. And I think the answer is that we can ALWAYS take steps to make it stop and to flee from it or to bring justice to our oppressor. Always. We will remain in suffering as long as the Lord wills, but that determination is up to Him, not us. From our perspective, we do all we can to escape it. It is never God’s desire that evil be done to us. Never. It is always His will that evil people receive justice and that victims be set free. We seek freedom and justice. We pray for and strive for deliverance. In the Lord’s timing, He will bring it.

    • Barnabasintraining

      Great question.

      I know one way to discern is suffering that comes from Christ has no way out. Like, for example, you are diagnosed with some kind of illness, or something like that.

      Another way is that there is grace to endure. I mean there actually is. There is a sense of His presence and peace in the midst of it: a sort of certainty that it is in His hands and all will be well. Of course, we have the option of rejecting that peace and then feel like a basket case until we accept His will. But the kind of suffering from the enemy involves deception, guilt, burdening the soul, and basically messing with the head so they think they are supposed to endure and are made to feel guilty if they don’t. They then blame themselves for the absence of peace and grace when the reality is, God has denied both because the suffering does not come from Him and He does not want it endured.

      Then there is suffering we could escape if we wanted to but decide of our own free will to endure. We willingly chose to put up with something or someone because we love them and feel that is a good choice to make. But the sense of freedom to chose this is what makes the difference here. There is no sense of it being required yet grace being denied.

      • Katy

        Well this is going to blow your mind.

        Challies has been very critical of Mother Theresa for this very thing. With good reason. He rightly notes that Mother Theresa was not interested in easing the suffering of those with leprosy – many times she was just providing them a place to die. She is reported to have instructed people that their suffering was for God, and she made no real moves to actually “help” them or “ease” their suffering. She was a true nun in every sense of the word.

        Challies can clearly see that Mother Theresa was not a saint for this. And yet he supports Nancy Leigh Demoss, the “Evangelical Mother Superior” who calls women to suffer under the yoke of beatings and abuse FOR JESUS..? Challies thinks she’s a good Reformed lady who is calling women to Holiness in marriage.

        !!! Can nobody see this insanity but us?

      • Jeff Crippen

        I think that the Colossian heresy is widespread in the church today. We have not heeded Paul’s warnings to reject ascetic systems that draw us away from Christ and His full and completed work of redemption. I have mentioned before how Ellen G. White and her Adventist teachings are a very plain example of what Paul was talking about, but DeMoss’ system fits the pattern as well and is more dangerous because it is a closer counterfeit. Listen to Paul:

        Colossians 2:16-23 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations — “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used) — according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

        So here are DeMoss, and the Elliffs, Piper and others of this school teaching their asceticism. Severe treatment of the body. They lay regulations on people, and people submit to them. They take something like marriage, which is a shadow of things to come, not the substance, and they pass judgment on people in questions of divorce, remarriage, and abuse, condemning anyone who does not treat marriage as if it is an eternal entity that is an end in itself. It all has an appearance of wisdom. It looks like a system that will stop “the indulgence of the flesh.” But it won’t. What it does do is draw us away from Christ our Head and it hinders our growth in Him.

        We need to stop submitting to these human precepts and regulations. Paul says that they are produced and disseminated by people who are “puffed up without reason by their sensuous mind.” In other words, these ascetic systems like DeMoss is laying on people are put off as being so spiritual, but in fact they are quite sensuous and fleshly.

        It is frightening then to think of how widespread the Colossian heresy has spread among evangelicals in our day. We are seeing it play itself out in several ways, and this whole issue of how abuse is handled in the church is one of the most common. We have been focusing on the family for decades now. What results to we see? We have authors and speakers and entire ministries “going on in detail” about their vision for marriage and the family and this nation. They write reams of pages about the regulations we all need to submit to. And they all sound so wise.

        Christ is to be our focus. He is the One to lead us. We don’t need the ABC’s of legalism.

      • We have been focusing on the family for decades now. What results to we see? We have authors and speakers and entire ministries “going on in detail” about their vision for marriage and the family and this nation.

        You’ve written before about the Colossians heresy, Jeff, but for me, your comment here has nailed it a lot more home.

        Before you started pointing this out, I had always thought of the Colossians heresy as some kind of precursor to Gnosticism. I have read commentaries that discuss the Colossians’ focus on peripherals and link it to manifestations we see today: food & drink & special days in the calendar (e.g. Seventh Day Adventists); worship of angels (e.g. New Age); asceticism (e.g. priestly celibacy); visions (e.g. Rick Joiner)… but to my knowledge no-one other than you has pointed out that the evangelical focus on Marriage & The Family is akin to the Colossian heresy.

        I think we can benefit from chewing this idea over and over, to extract the juices from it.

        Now I’m remembering a bit more of what I’ve read in other commentaries about the Colossian heresy. Commentators often say “We are not sure what the Colossian heresy was, but we can make some educated guesses…”

        I understand being unsure exactly what it was (all we have to go on is what Paul wrote in that epistle) but I’m wondering whether our blindness to how the church is steeped in a form of Colossian heresy in this day and age, is contributing to our inability to penetrate what the Colossian heresy was. If I can’t see the nose in front of my face, how can i accurately see the scene before me? Not sure If I’m making sense here, but I’m going to hit the submit button.

      • Jeff Crippen

        You’re right, Barbara. I think the scholars have changed from being so certain it was a gnostic heresy to being quite a lot more uncertain about exactly what it was. It had elements of Jewish legalism in it, apparent angel or spirit being exaltation, ascetic practice, and so on. That area where Colossae was, near Hieropolis and Laodicea was apparently into some weird pagan ritual stuff too. But whatever it was specifically, it was taught by puffed up people who claimed they had some “word from the gods” (visions) or some dream, and they pressed their rules onto people with the claim that more was needed than Christ. So:

        1. Realize that these big-name alleged Christian personalities put their pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us, [well, at least in the circles where women can wear pants too],
        2. Reject all nonsense about what to eat, what to wear, what to stay clear of (movies, etc),
        3. And cling to Christ who in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. ALL. The whole package!

        This means that we will be disregarding Christian celebrity figures whose books sell in the millions, who are on the speaking circuit, and who know everything we need to know about anything.

      • So Jeff when your or my book has sold 1,000,000 copies, everyone can ignore us!

        Actually, everyone can ignore (or pay attention) to us if they chose to. How many books we have or have not sold is irrelevant. The only thing that’s relevant is how well our teaching and ministry is consistent with Scripture and the heart of God.

      • Katy

        “We need to stop submitting to these human precepts and regulations. Paul says that they are produced and disseminated by people who are “puffed up without reason by their sensuous mind.” In other words, these ascetic systems like DeMoss is laying on people are put off as being so spiritual, but in fact they are quite sensuous and fleshly. ”

        Amen. I’m so glad I can recognize this now. I’m glad I stayed in my current church after the Nancy Book Debacle, because we just started a new ladies’ bible study on Sunday mornings, and I decided I need to be there. Somebody’s got to be able to point out the truth, in love, so that people are not unnecessarily burdened and hindered from freedom in Christ. This is so sad.

      • Jeff Crippen

        As soon as a Bible study deteriorates into discussions about how a Christian wife, for example, is to operate in her home in regard to dress, diet, reading material, “proper” methods for educating children, whether she is allowed to have a career…. look out. Sure, there can be some validity to discussing some of these things in general, but as soon as some book or leader starts laying down regulations for all, we know we are into the do not handle, taste, or touch stuff Paul warns us about. How many women’s Bible studies aren’t really Bible studies at all? (or men’s studies…just talking about women here at the moment). Worse, how many women’s conferences go wrong on all this? They invite some “dynamic speaker who is married to the pastor of a large dynamic church and who has written 12 books and who has 4 perfect children and she is going to tell us how to do everything.” Come on, be honest. When you go to things like that, what is the effect on you? You get DISCOURAGED because you are sooooo far from the perfection people like this claim for themselves. Well guess what? If you were a fly on the wall in the homes of such people, you would see a far different picture than they painted at the conference.

      • Barnabasintraining

        She is reported to have instructed people that their suffering was for God, and she made no real moves to actually “help” them or “ease” their suffering.

        I think the kind of suffering Mother Theresa was talking about there is something they teach is meritorious. It’s a kind of offering of one’s suffering to God to be mixed with Christ’s suffering and it supposedly has a redemptive purpose. What’s she’s talking about is more like fatalism or asceticism. I suspect Challies draws the line of demarcation in a different place than MT. He might say MT is teaching meritorious suffering that adds to Christ’s death and is thus co-redemptive but he himself does not mean a woman to suffer as her own co-redeemer but in obedience as one redeemed. I also suspect those lines don’t mean as much as he thinks they do because as Jeff S said above, “of course they don’t say it is a salvation issue, but what else is the victim to conclude?”

      • Barnabasintraining

        Jeff C 7:07 AM

        Yes!!! +10!!!!

      • Katy

        Ah. So, in essence, Mother Theresa would have you suffer to “help” Jesus save you. Challies/Nancy would have you suffer because you are saved, and it’s a mark of righteousness. ?

      • Barnabasintraining

        So, in essence, Mother Theresa would have you suffer to “help” Jesus save you. Challies/Nancy would have you suffer because you are saved, and it’s a mark of righteousness. ?

        Basically.

  14. Barnabasintraining

    I would love to see a sketch or cartoon of someone who is broken getting broken even more by being ploughed over by a Pharisees’s team of oxen.

    That would have to go viral.

  15. Diane

    Jeff said~

    “We need to stop submitting to these human precepts and regulations. Paul says that they are produced and disseminated by people who are “puffed up without reason by their sensuous mind.” In other words, these ascetic systems like DeMoss is laying on people are put off as being so spiritual, but in fact they are quite sensuous and fleshly.”

    There must be a large market to tap for Christian singles. I do not know much about it. I do know this-she can say how God has not allowed marriage for her for some reason and convince others she is suffering in her lonliness for Jesus and offering that up to God and going to the cross and dying to your desires blah blah blah…(and btw—buy my books and donate to my year end need and I will tell you how to perfectly endure all of this), but we really do not know if that is true.

    It is possible she is not suffering and lonely at all. I am not convinced. She may be very happy being able to jet around the world and do as she pleases with almost unlimitless funds… not having to have to follow her own “death sentence” marital teachings and commit to life to a man who may be not what she thought he was, and have to endure the responsibilities of marriage and family.

    I know a lot of people who never married or who do not have children… Christians even, and they are very happy. I guess my point is that one can feel pretty good about oneself by promoting oneself as a semi-martyr suffering for Jesus by remaining single because He hasn’t brought the spouse around…while really having NO desire at all to be married.

  16. Katy

    “she may be very happy being able to jet around the world and do as she pleases with almost unlimitless funds”

    That’s funny because she has written about how she submits herself to the manly authority in her church/ministry/whatever. She went so far as to deny herself an earlier flight at an airport one time, relating how she told the pilot “I’m sorry I was told to take a different flight, and I am a woman under authority”…. 🙂 ha ha – she’s got an answer for all of this I’m sure. She submits herself to men in token ways so she’s not giving herself a free pass. hee hee

    • Barnabasintraining

      She went so far as to deny herself an earlier flight at an airport one time, relating how she told the pilot “I’m sorry I was told to take a different flight, and I am a woman under authority”….

      I don’t think we’ve used this word here yet, but frankly, that sounds cultic to me. “I was told to take a different flight”?? Why even put things this way? And why does the pilot need to know this? I’m having a hard time conceiving of a situation where that kind of comment would make sense.

      • Jeff Crippen

        It indicates she is spiritually attuned to the voice and will of God. More so than others.

      • Barnabasintraining

        Jeff,

        How so?

      • Jeff Crippen

        Because I see that sort of thing as boasting. I used to think such people were a step above me in holiness because they seem so obedient to the Lord. But over the years I have found that they really just say those kinds of things to let other people know that THEY, in contrast to us, are willing to go all out in what they claim is obedience to the Lord. In this case, submitting to those “over” her. Now I don’t see them as holy. I see them as either, 1) mental, or 2) arrogant. Notice that the Lord Jesus Himself fit right in with tax-gatherers and sinners. Yes he was different, and radically so. Yet they were glad He came to their house. He drew them to Himself. People who say things like “I am a woman under authority” don’t draw me to them. I just want to get away. I have been in people’s homes where I was extremely uncomfortable because of the show of “saintliness.” The holy talk. The holy traditions. But it was all show and frankly, I found it rude.

      • Barnabasintraining

        Ah. I see what you mean.

        I have been in people’s homes where I was extremely uncomfortable because of the show of “saintliness.” The holy talk. The holy traditions. But it was all show and frankly, I found it rude.

        Yeah. I have too. Like they have to prove something, or else establish dominance via “I’m holier than you.”

  17. Jo

    I just found your site somewhat by accident. It’s outstanding! Thank you! I’ve had my issues with Life Action (since the late ’70s) for years. During the second encounter about 10 years ago at a different church, I literally got an upset stomach when I saw that their itinerary included our church. I spoke to the pastor. His impression of them was “glowing”. We went one evening just to be gracious, hoping things had changed. I’ll spare you the details. It was not good. I started reading DeMoss’ blog just to see what her position was, I made a few comments, and got tired of beating my head against the wall. I was appalled to learn that she was not married and did not have children. My gut feeling was that Life Action pulled her into that position because of the family $$ and because they could use and manipulate her to teach whatever they wanted in order to promote the whole Life Action package. Probably the “last straw” was when she was introducing a guest on her show and they proceeded to have a ‘mutual admiration society’ between themselves–they kept affirming and reinforcing each other to the point of being phony. Now I read this blog and see that I’m not the only one who has seen red flags! It’s kind of nice to realize that I’ve indeed had some discernment and clear thinking along the way! I should learn to pay attention to it and nourish it–we all need to rightly divide the Word and not be afraid to speak up!

    • Jeff Crippen

      You nailed it Jo! Most definitely. We need to trust Christ and His Spirit in us and His Word. It says what it says. When the big names don’t line up with that truth, we must go with what we know to be true. Anymore, frankly, I don’t listen much at all to the big names.

    • Hi Jo, welcome to our blog. Nice to have you here. 🙂

      My gut feeling was that Life Action pulled her into that position because of the family $$ and because they could use and manipulate her to teach whatever they wanted in order to promote the whole Life Action package.

      This sounds pretty right to me.

  18. Mandy

    Here’s a novel idea. What if we did away with gender segregated Bible studies, age segregated Bible studies, lifestyle segregated Bible studies (ie young married, single, etc…), and just got groups of people together to study the Bible? What if men and women stopped looking for rules to chase holiness and started living as the Holy Spirit leads them? What if we stopped putting so many many man-made qualifications on salvation and just accept the gift of salvation? What would the modern church look like if people stopped trying to prove their holiness and simply lived? What would the modern church look like and how would people earn a living? There would certainly not be a need for women like Ms. DeMoss to try to tell women to be as holy as she is.

    I am a single disabled woman who is insulted by Ms. DeMoss’s various instructions in her book. I investigated it thoroughly after it was promoted in a women’s Sunday School class. I promptly withdrew from that class as I knew that I would never be accepted if this was the prevailing viewpoint. I am no less saved because I choose not to have children in order to protect my fragile health.

    • Jeff Crippen

      Thanks Mandy – Quite a few years back we dumped the normal pattern for our weekly Sunday School and opted to have one large class (we are a small church) for all ages except for a nursery and a pre-school class. All the other ages are in the same class, studying the same thing. I can’t tell you what pressure this takes off of us. We don’t have to be constantly hunting for teachers, for pre-made lesson plans, and so on. We do have a mid-week women’s study and a mid-week get together in a home for the teens. But this has worked very well for us. I’m not saying it needs to be the format for everyone. But it has worked for us.

      Glad you spotted the issues with DeMoss’ book!

      • I’ve attended the Sunday school at Jeff’s church and I can tell you, it is astounding how the children listen and are tuned in to the topic. There is no dumbing down for the kids. I was really impressed. They don’t shrink from tough subjects like abuse either, but then, Jeff did give then 21 sermons a while back on the Psychology and Methods of Sin (using domestic abuse as an example par excellence of sin). So the congregation is very well educated!

    • Barnabasintraining

      I am no less saved because I choose not to have children in order to protect my fragile health.

      Amen.

    • Hi Mandy, welcome to our blog!

  19. annette reavis

    I did not seek out counseling because of this type of thought path. I was raised by a very religious mother. She loved the Lord with all her heart and was told that she needed to pray more for my father, that there was sin in our home that’s why my dad would not say home and work to feed his family and all the other women he had. my poor mother Indore going through trips to the doctors offices to be treated for STD’s. It was a harebell time in hers and our lives. I had always said I wouldn’t be like that only to find my self be so weak with my husband. I aloud him to push me around and talk to me like a dog. I look back now and see I had wanted to be a Godly woman and wife, I read books by Christian speakers and writers. It would not always set with me right. But I thought I was being rebellious, I have heard this lady speak before and I’ll will always remember something that one of the ladies in that speaking group said that day . She told a story about a lady whose husband had been cheating on her for years. She said that the women would go to her room and cry to the lord but did not leave and after a life of this, her husband came to know the Lord. What kind of life is this for women ? this is what my mom did. I’m living in a 23 year marriage we have been together since I was 17 . I don’t remember him being the way he has been forever but ten to twelve years ago he changed. Right now he’s as good as gold, but I see he wasn’t as bad 4 years ago as he had been for the last 3 years. A few months back I count take it any longer I started telling his mom and dad how he had been treating me and about his affair that had gone on for over two years, he was MAD!!! but did not say anything to me. He just kept on be as nice as he could be .He started praying for us again but he will not take the steps to go back to therapy. Avoids it, I read that Marriage is the only war were you sleep with your enemy. I never looked at him as that before but he has not done anything to repair the hurt and pain. He wants to pretend it didn’t happen. I see and hear to remarks by Women speakers like the ones above and wonder if they know what there doing to women when they say these things.or if they really care ,what type of people are they inside. I want to be loved and know what real love is ,i’m starting with me. It’s been a Blessing to find this blog . Thank U Lord for these people who are speaking out for love . The right kind of Godly Love !

  20. Cindy

    Nancy has never been married let alone to an abusive husband so it is very easy to post how you would react to situations. How many of us here said when we got married it would be to an abusive person and we would put up with as much as we did.
    Never say never, right?

  21. Kayla

    I have been slowly reading through Nancy Leigh DeMoss’ book, Lies Women Believe. I say slowly because I want to believe the book is good for me to read, and it seems to have SOME good points in it. HOWEVER, every time I read a sentence or two or entire paragraph that grates on me because it just sets wrong deep in my gut, I have a hard time picking it up again to finish the chapter. And like I have been reading in the previous posts, it too disgusts me about her generalization of women who may be going through hell with a husband who is far and beyond NOT loving to them! I have a wonderful and loving husband of my own, (thank you Lord!) but I would NOT be quick to question another woman telling me she is being abused by her husband, whether physically, emotionally, mentally or spiritually!!!! I would treat it seriously and help her get whatever help she needs!!! And if that means leaving her husband, then so be it, and NOT if it’s just physical abuse!!!

    Also, the whole entire chapter about children…..agh!!!! That was a hard chapter to read, just today, in fact! I disagreed with so much of it, or at least how she once again generalizes about having children, like how many children and when! Good grief! Not everybody leads the exact same life and mold, Miss DeMoss! Quit speaking about it like its a woman’s salvation, or close to it! Yes, she mentions that not every woman needs to get married and have children, but by golly! If you do marry, you better not plan anything regarding children! Why do some ‘Christian’ people believe its such a great sin to want to wait to have children or space them out?? I whole heartedly believe abortion is WRONG and a sin because it’s murder; you have already CONCEIVED a child!) But what is wrong with PREVENTING from becoming pregnant sooner than you like?? Or, if you do have a baby sooner than you were planning on, yes, you accept it (or for some women, give the baby up for adoption) but that doesn’t mean you have to just have one after another so soon! Unless, of course you want to, then yes, that is a couple’s individual choice. All the more power to you! I’m NOT trying to go to the other end of the spectrum and say its wrong to have a lot of children either! Please don’t get me wrong, especially those who have and/or are part of a large family. (I’m actually one of seven, myself!) My irritation is when ‘Christian’ people give other Christian people a hard time about preventing (short term or long term) from having children. Besides, in my opinion, if God REALLY wants you to have a child and you are taking the means of preventing it, He will somehow allow you to conceive anyway!
    Agh! And another part of that chapter that not only irritated me but cut deep to my heart is that she makes NO mention of those woman who have not been able to conceive!! (if she did, I totally missed it!) Unlike being abused in whatever form from a husband like so many woman have and still do suffer from, being unable to conceive for years is something that I KNOW hurts beyond words! She makes no mention of these women! And I am one of them! My opinion of you Miss DeMoss, GREATLY lowered more so this very day after reading the ‘children chapter’. 😦 No disrespect, but from what I have read, you are not even married yourself!!! I assumed all along you were, because I figured there would be plenty of paragraphs and a chapter on marriage. How can you write about marriage when you are not a married woman yourself?!? That may not be necessarily wrong, but to me, that is just ODD! It’s like you are only parroting whatever you were taught and raised with all your life by your parents and church background, but have no actual marriage to go on! You know, like wisdom, experience, that sort of teaching, from an older lady to a younger one as myself.

    Big *sigh* of bewilderment!…….I will only finish reading the book so I can give my honest opinion to my friends who are going through it as well. For others who are reading this and have never read the book; sure, read it! It’s your prerogative! Just some advice: read slowly and carefully, and you don’t have to believe all of Miss DeMoss’ teaching. The BIBLE, yes!! Just not necessarily her spin on it!!

    • Good for you Kayla! Your responses are spot on. Nancy DeMoss (yes, she’s a Miss, never married) is incredibly legalistic AND way to rigid about marriage. She can get away with it because she is very rich. . . her father’s trust fund. Nuf said.

    • And I’m sorry to hear about the difficulty you’ve had conceiving. That is an anguish I have not had, thankfully. DeMoss should listen to people like you, but I think she is too high up in her ‘know it all’ tower.

    • I understand your struggle a bit, I think, Kayla. Certainly the part about how this stuff impacts women.

      Sounds like DeMoss got the book title wrong and it ought to say “Lies I Think Women Should Believe.” 😦

  22. Healing

    I have not read her book, just the comments and quotes here. How can this woman say that women shouldn’t seek careers and that their career should be centered around the home when SHE HERSELF HAS a VERY BIG CAREER as an author and speaker that is NOT centered around a husband and children because she has no husband and children either! If she followed her own advice on what it means to be a woman under God then she would have sought out a husband and children and NEVER gone down a career path instead…and I say “instead” because I used to own a business and I know it takes center stage. So maybe this is why she is not married yet…or never will be? Because her focus went into the ‘evil’ career path and not the ‘Godly’ wife/mother path?! It all just doesn’t add up to me. BTW, I actually agree with the thought of woman being the keepers of the home, etc, and not having careers unless they can somehow balance it all (like the Proverbs woman who has servants to help with it all, LOL)…but a woman can ONLY be this type of woman if the man TRULY leads! He must do his part and provide enough financially so that the woman can focus on the home exclusively. Sometimes, the man slacks off and the woman has to help out. Sometimes, even living very frugally the man cannot make ends meet and the woman has to help out. I understand all of that and I’ve lived all of that. So, again, my issue is not with a woman having a career if she wants one and can handle one without the kids suffering…but that this very woman who has a successful and very busy career and no husband and kids tells other women that they shouldn’t do exactly what she is doing!! Oh, the hypocrisy!! If this woman did what she suggests others do then she never would have written the book in the first place and we wouldn’t even be commenting on it because she’d be tucked away in some house with a white picket fence and 10 kids or more on her knees with a plate of brownies in front of the King Husband. Ugh. Sorry for my rant. I despise hypocrisy and inconsistency. I find it crazy-making…and quite frankly…smacks of abuse…”do as I say, not as I do!!”

  23. Healing

    hahha…one more thing…I have to laugh at the title of her book…seems to prophetically fit the contents of the book, ironically…”Lies Women Believe”…may the Lord help the women who read this book to not believe the lies contained within!

    • Valerie

      Like button!

  24. Tsungilosdi

    ” A woman’s willingness to embrace, rather than shun, her God-given role and calling (“childbearing”) is a necessary fruit that will accompany genuine salvation — it is proof that she belongs to Him and follows His ways.”

    What rhetorical crack is this woman smoking?! Oh my gosh! What about all of the women who are unwillingly single, who can’t have kids?! Are they not saved then? What Scripture verse supports this ridiculous concept?! This is a very dangerous book indeed.

  25. 3blossommom

    I never read Lies Women Believe, but I listened to Nancy Leigh DeMoss nearly every morning. The result of years of that kind of teaching in my abusive and betrayal filled marriage, was me becoming seriously depressed and suicidal. My submission never fixed my husband and that teaching caused me to judge and blame myself for everything that went wrong between us. And he used such teaching to accuse me when he left me for the latest mistress. If I could have just done what “those women” said he would never have needed to look outside the home for satisfaction (over and over and over).
    If I could have been the kind of wife she described…but I wasn’t perfect enough. My husband didn’t want a wife who was trying, he wanted one who bowed at his feet without fail…NO MATTER WHAT HE DID OR HOW HE TREATED ME. Our regional Christian radio station stopped broadcasting her program about two years ago and that is when I began to see the light.
    Why did I never stop to think that she had (at that time) never been married. And obviously didn’t know what a wolf in sheep’s clothing looked like?

  26. SingleMother

    I am a youngish single mother of several children born out of wedlock to different men as well as being illegitimate. My mother was married to my father when she got pregnant with me. He beat her while she was pregnant with my older brother and when she wasn’t pregnant. Then he had another woman pregnant at the same time. She divorced him. I understand what the principle of what DeMoss is saying as well as believe my mother had every right to a divorce and was biblical.

    My question and comment together, is how do I break the curse? I do my best, but but I do live in poverty and have to work. My time is not quality in anything I do. I have to stop and remind myself to pray and study and ponder on what’s really important in life. We belong to [name of church removed by Eds], and people have helped and helped still do. I.e. taking my oldest girls to retreat while I work. It’s so heart breaking and peace is hard to hold on to along with self and what I’m doing daily. I want my children to have morals that I did not. […] To be truly full of Gods love is the only answer. If you have any knowledge or help to me as a mother to simply help me be all I can be and live in Gods purpose, please do. Prayer also! Help me change the cycle in my family. Bless us so that we may bless others.

    • Dear sister, welcome to the blog 🙂

      We always like to encourage new readers to check out our New Users Info page as it gives tips for how to guard your safety while commenting on the blog.

      I changed your screen name to SingleMother as a precaution. It’s not a good idea to use your real name on this blog unless you are certain you are safe from abusers, and I think in your situation you are still quite vulnerable so I want to help you keep safe. If you want us to change your screen name to something else, just email The woman behind the curtain: twbtc.acfj@gmail.com — she will be more than happy to assist. 🙂

      In relation to helping your kids develop good morals, you might find this post helpful:
      Teaching Children The Ten Commandments Of Character

      You may also find Dr George Simon’s blog helpful. Find it at http://www.manipulative-people.com/

      I am glad you have found Christ and are striving to live in His ways. I encourage you to pat yourself on the back for wanting to not continue in the patterns that your parents modelled. I encourage you to be gentle on yourself as you bit by bit renew you mind with the help of the Holy Spirit and cultivate better character and habits. Changes like this take time, sometimes there seems to be progress, sometimes a back slip, but if you are in Christ the progress overall will be upwards and forwards. Here is a post about this which you may find helpful: https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2015/03/02/does-the-victim-recognize-the-abusive-patterns-yes-and-no-and-then-by-degrees-yes/

      I encourage you to dig into our blog using the tags, the search bar, and the Insights tab. I think you will find much that is helpful.

      Regarding poverty, we don’t have any magic wand for that, but I think it may be important for you to not lay heavy expectations on yourself that you should always feel at peace and content in every respect. You are tired. You are partly tired because you simply work such long hours. You are doing that to keep your kids and yourself housed and fed and cared for. You are working hard because you are being a good mother and you care for your kids! I honour you for that. But I wouldn’t expect you to always feel peaceful and relaxed!

      We believe in honouring how victims of abuse have responded to the difficult circumstances they have faced. Here is a free booklet which explains this more: Honouring Resistance

      By the way, you are not the only person on this blog who committed sexual sin before finding Christ. Before I became a Christian I was extremely promiscuous.

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