A Cry For Justice

Awakening the Evangelical Church to Domestic Violence and Abuse in its Midst

Billy Graham, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul are some of the “Untouchables” in the visible church

 

Billy Graham

R C Sproul with John MacArthur

One reason why the visible church is such an abuser-friendly environment is that the visible church has many people in it who are not born again. People who have not been saved. People who do not know Jesus.

Some of those people who are not born again think they are Christians and are doing their best to live like Christians without having the Spirit. They are not intentionally harming others, but because they do not have the Spirit they are easily misled by false teachers and are gullible to false doctrine.

Some of those people who are not born again KNOW they are not Christians but they portray themselves as Christians in order spread false doctrines and maraud on the genuine believers.

The false form of salvation is epidemic.

I thought I was saved for years & was not.
God made me know something was off.
I was humbled in awe when He revealed it to me.
God is exposing cheap grace & pagan ways.
(—said by an anonymous follower of A Cry For Justice)

 Now let’s discuss the “untouchables”  in the church

Jeff Crippen wrote the following in 2012:

The Untouchables Among Evangelicals 

Many years ago I remember teaching an adult Sunday school class. I read an article from a leading evangelical para-church organization which melded Christianity and Judaism, leaving the reader with the impression that one was as true as the other. A fellow who was visiting our class that day raised his hand and was obviously quite agitated. He said that he knew for a fact that this organization was a sound, Christian ministry that had done much good, and that it was absolutely terrible that I was criticizing it. He ended his critique with these words – “The next thing you will be criticizing Billy Graham.

My answer to him was – well, I won’t be talking about Billy Graham this morning, but there certainly are some very questionable methods that he has used over the years, and I would not be the only one who has pointed these things out (see Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones’ biography for example).

I have no doubt that as we name the names of well-known pastors and teachers who are teaching that abuse is not a biblical ground for divorce, we are going to be roundly criticized for being critical. But believe it or not, I do not enjoy doing this kind of thing. I have respected John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul over the years and in many ways I still do. But I cannot condone the fact that they are all teaching as God’s Word a terrible notion – that God does not permit divorce for abuse. That a man can beat his wife to a pulp, totally smash the vows he took as the terms of his marriage covenant, and yet the covenant remains binding upon her. …(read the full post here)
[bold emphasis added by Barb]

Jeff published that post on 5 March 2012 when the ACFJ blog was only two months old. Oddly enough, my first post at ACFJ also came out the same day as The Untouchables Among Evangelicals. We were not very good at scheduling posts back then! 

For nearly six years, Jeff and I co-led this blog. Jeff resigned from this blog on 25 Sept 2017. He is still a full time pastor.

I want to update you on the “Untouchables” that Jeff Crippen mentioned.

R.C. Sproul

R.C. Sproul died not long after Jeff had resigned from this blog, and Jeff contacted me suggesting that ACFJ publish the private letter Sproul had sent to him some years previously. So I published it under our joint by-line, even though Jeff was no longer co-leading the blog with me. You can read that post here: R.C. Sproul Changed His View on Abuse as Grounds for Divorce – but to our knowledge he never publicly announced that change

John MacArthur

I am certain that since writing his “Untouchables” post in 2012, Jeff Crippen’s respect for MacArthur has greatly diminished, and he may perhaps have zero respect for him now.

It is public knowledge that only recently the Masters University Seminary has been put on probation by the accrediting authority. The secular authority which accredits universities has suspended Masters University Seminary for several reasons, one of which is a pervasive culture of bullying and another of which is lack of financial probity. The Wartburg Watch is one of the blogs covering that story. Please do your own research on it; I don’t have time to give links.

John MacArthur has also slandered everyone in the church who is working for justice for the victims of abuse.  See Rebecca Davis’s post Social justice is not the gospel: a response to John MacArthur

And someone has created this brilliant spoof of John MacArthur being like Hitler.

 

And now for Billy Graham
– the big evangelist who many people don’t want to think could have been a false teacher

I recently posted at the ACFJ facebook page (link) about Billy Graham. I shared a video clip of Billy Graham being interviewed by Robert Schuller where they are discussing salvation. And I wrote on facebook:

Billy Graham gave a false gospel. He said, “They may not even know the name of Jesus but…they are saved and they’re going to be with us in heaven.”

I have transcribed the following from the 1997 video where Billy Graham is being interviewed by Robert Schuller on “Hour of Power”.

Billy Graham:

…whether they come from the Muslim world or the Buddhist world or the Christian world or the non-believing world they are members of the body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their heart that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have and I think that they are saved and that they’re going to be with us in heaven.

Robert Schuller:

This is fantastic! I’m so thrilled to hear you say that – there’s a wideness in God’s mercy.

Pastor Sam Powell commented at the facebook post about what Billy Graham said in that video clip. Here is what Sam said:

It’s the gospel that is at stake. If Rev. Graham’s statement is correct, then salvation is a reward for sincerity, or good intentions. If that is the case, then no one is saved, for the justice of God requires perfection and is never fooled by “good intentions”.

Many of you on this site have been abused by church leaders who refused to discipline your abusers because they “repented” and had “really good intentions”. Was that just?

Is not God always just? Does God allow wickedness to go unpunished? How much wickedness is OK and how much is too much?

Instead of relying on our sentimentality, we hear God’s word. The soul that sins shall die.

The only hope of salvation is that God provided the perfect sacrifice, without blemish and without spot. Our sins were laid on him, and his righteousness was given freely to our account, as if we never had any sin – if only we accept it with a believing heart.

This is the only truth that sets us free. Otherwise we are held in bondage by those who promise us better ways, easier ways, just drop a few coins in and walk down the aisle one more time…

How many times is enough? Does God really save those with good intentions? I would say yes – but then who has those? 100 percent of the time, from birth until death, without once every failing and thinking evil in his heart…Anyone qualify? I guess you need to try again, and again, and again…

Billy Graham’s way leads only to bondage and death.

Come to Christ and live!

And, yes, this was the same gospel proclaimed and believed by the saints of the Old Testament. They didn’t have the details, but they had the promise of God – that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. They had the sacrifices and the promise that God himself would provide a lamb.

And Proverbs 8 is a glimpse of the Trinity that would be more fully revealed in the new. I’m preaching on that tomorrow, if you would like to catch it.

Barb, sorry for hijacking your post. I so want everyone to be free of the false gospel of death that has held us in bondage for far too long, Either Jesus paid it all, or he did not. If he did, then Rev. Graham was wrong in what he said to Schuller.

BTW, Robert Schuller was a rank heretic. How’s that for stirring the pot?

Note well: Even John MacArthur stated that Billy Graham’s gospel was fuzzy. In his sermon Deliverance: From the Temporal World to the Eternal Kingdom (Nov 5, 2000), John MacArthur said:

There is an article in a journal that comments and reviews [Billy Graham’s] autobiography “Just As I Am”.  And I think it’s worth giving you some insight into that, because I think it points out the breadth of this problem. The editor of the journal says:

“While Graham has become the very symbol of gentle, compassionate, and loving evangelicalism, he has also become the symbol for an evangelicalism that speaks cautiously, politically, and non-theologically.  He was never able to escape the fuzzy a-theological pragmatism of modern evangelicalism.  It is Billy Graham, more than any other figure in this century, who helped to create, by his overwhelming persona, the present evangelical crisis, which threatens to destroy the very institutions and causes in which Graham invested his life and energy for over 55 years.”

That is a sad statement, but it is an appropriate one in view of the facts. 

Now, here’s something to think about:

Evil people might pose as Christian evangelists and be very convincing. But many of the people they ‘lead to the Lord’ may not be truly born again because the ‘gospel’ these people have preached gives people the idea that they can be saved just by saying the sinners prayer. Or it might give people the idea they can be saved just by having good intentions and trying their best to please God. Or it might give people the idea that they can be saved by participating in the motions of the “prescribed  sacraments” such as baptism, confirmation, confessing their sins to the priest, going to church services regularly, doing penance, etc.

All those ‘gospels’ are not the true gospel. They fall short. They are sub-biblical. They do a great deal of harm because people can think they are saved when they are not saved.

Why would evil people pose as Christian evangelists? They might do it because they want the visible church to be largely populated by people who think they’re following Jesus but they’re not actually born again.

The more unregenerate people there are in the visible church, the more likely it will be an abuser-friendly environment.

When there are more weeds than wheat in the field, the wheat cannot thrive. The weeds dominate the wheat and the wheat struggles to get the sunshine and moisture which it needs to grow. And in the church, weeds can even be parasitical on the wheat… 

The false form of salvation is epidemic.

I thought I was saved for years & was not.
God made me know something was off.
I was humbled in awe when He revealed it to me.
God is exposing cheap grace & pagan ways.
(—said by an anonymous follower of A Cry For Justice)

***

Further reading 

Billy Graham

Every Appearance of Evil, and the Billy Graham Rule – Ps Sam Powell

R. C. Sproul 

R.C. Sproul Changed His View on Abuse as Grounds for Divorce – but to our knowledge he never publicly announced that change – Ps Jeff Crippen and Barbara Roberts

R.C. Sproul on Biblical Grounds for Divorce – Another Aaaaargh! – Ps Jeff Crippen

John MacArthur

John MacArthur’s Instruction to Abuse Victims – Aaaaargh!!!  – Ps Jeff Crippen

More on Abuse from John MacArthur – Double Aaaargh!  Ps Jeff Crippen

Focus on the Family & John MacArthur spout “God hates divorce.” And do they accept correction? – Barbara Roberts

Does John MacArthur Teach that Suffering Abuse is Meritorious Before God? – Ps Jeff Crippen

Do you see me? — a survivor “Jane Doe” recounts how she was abominably treated by Masters College and Grace Community Church leaders when she reported that she had been raped. (those institutions are part of John MacArthur’s empire)

Do you hear me?  another “Jane Doe” who has suffered at the hands of the leadership at The Master’s University, Seminary and Grace Community Church.

48 Comments

  1. The John MacArthur – Hitler spoof is missing from the blog post, just FYI.

    Good post.

    Rebecca Davis *www.heresthejoy.com *

    • For some reason the John MacArthur – Hitler spoof didn’t show up in the email notification of this post, but it does show up at the blog.

      • Now Free (formerly struggling to be free)

        When I stood up to my pastor and questioned him and his wife “ what is your stance if I’m being abused….physically sexually mentally do you still say I must stay in and work at it because there is hope!”
        They just looked so blank to each other and could not answer. Totally stumped.

        Any wonder my family struggled at first when these so called learned Christian men have not a clue either.
        Any wonder abuse abounds in the church when leaders cannot seemto marry up scriptures and the character of God and get it right in their heads. They know deep down abuse is totally wrong and sinful. What stops them getting by this big divorce question when it’s abuse that’s at the heart and wreck of a marriage?

        In my view it’s pride, denial and downright stubbornness that they could have just been wrong for years blocks further enlightenment.
        At the heart of it pride is their downfall while many continue to be battered and killed – utterly disgusting to God and His true people.
        True men of God stand up and be counted and make a stand for truth and own up your past failures. Be a true man let alone a true Christian!! Ashamed of you and disgusted.

      • Helovesme

        Now Free ( Formerly Struggling To Be Free)

        Thank you for that.

  2. Krikit

    “The more unregenerate people there are in the visible church, the more likely it will be an abuser-friendly environment.”

    The more unregenerate people there are in the visible church, the more satan’s earthly goal is accomplished: that of having a Lightless, Saltless visible church; one where millions die in darkness.

  3. L

    Concerning Billy Graham’s remarks about people in heaven not knowing the name Jesus… I agree with him as far as that one sentence goes. I would have to see the whole statement in context though to be sure I agree.

    Who could truly love a God who, at the judgement, would say to a person, “You never heard the name Jesus because no one ever preached the gospel to you, or you didn’t have the ability to understand that He has a certain name so off to hell you go, even though you know you are a sinner, can’t ever be good enough to earn salvation, were visited by my Son in a dream or some other way, and chose to follow this un- named God. But, you didn’t follow the exact steps of knowing that this savior that you love with all your heart was named Jesus and you didn’t say the exact salvation prayer. Sorry, your doomed to burn for all of eternity. Off you go.” No! you could fear a God like that, you could maybe have a certain amount of respect for His power and position, but true, complete trusting love for Him? No Way! And if you don’t truly love Him and trust Him with your whole heart are YOU really saved?

    • jonahzsong

      Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him;
      I will protect him, because he knows my Name. Psalm 91:14

      G-D says, “because he knows my Name.”

      May the L-RD reveal His Truth, and His Name to His people while there is still daylight on Earth.

    • Hi L, you can watch the video of Billy Graham speaking to Robert Schuller, to see his words in context. The video is linked in the post.

  4. Helovesme

    “They are not intentionally harming others, but because they do not have the Spirit they are easily misled by false teachers and are gullible to false doctrine.”

    Is it all right to add that there are born again believers who are incredibly naive, young in age and/or young in the Lord, and due to their abusive lives—-they are still especially susceptible to being deceived? Especially open to being spiritually abused, using the Word of God to deceive and mislead.

    And yes, I am speaking of myself! Perhaps others have been in my shoes.

    I’m working very hard to undo the damage that was done to me. I take full responsibility for false doctrines, attitudes, very narrow or wide interpretations of Scripture (the list goes on) that I bought into.

    Either I didn’t know the Lord as He truly is yet, or I simply trusted these so-called mature Christians. I think it was a combination of both, depending on what was going on. But all the things I either silently or actively agreed with (or just didn’t know how to contradict)—-I still feel a sense of deep pain and anger at myself for it.

    When you have been abused, that does NOT mean you are a fool and now anyone and everyone can manipulate you. NOT TRUE.

    But in my case, abuse had weakened me terribly for sure. It thankfully opened a door for the Lord to speak to me, but even after becoming born again I was still very much a product of the abuse.

    I had not been built back up in Him, as a new creation—-I was a “babe in Christ” as the Word describes it. So this very young woman, now a “baby Christian” was very susceptible to putting any and all spiritual foods in her mouth (just like real babies do!) And I very much looked to mature, possibly older Christians to “take care” of me (as real babies do!)

    I was a pretty “hungry” new Christian as well, and I had not yet learned to “spit out” what I now call spiritual “junk food.” It may be tasty going down, but it’s not good for your soul.

    These are NOT excuses. No matter what was or wasn’t going on back then, I’m in the process of a lot of repenting.

    I remember reading that letter from Sproul. It got a lot of reaction and responses. It was a blessing for you all to share it, because it got us all thinking and talking about the seriousness of such issues. I am now learning to think like Him in my head, but to also use my voice to speak with His mind as well.

    Dang, I STILL need to get through that article about social justice! It sits on my tabs, and I WILL get through it. I am eager to read how she responds to MacArthur.

    I also recall when that video with BG was posted. Oh my goodness the variety and number of responses was overwhelming.

    Pastor Sam’s response was probably the winner, however: “It’s the gospel that is at stake. If Rev. Graham’s statement is correct, then salvation is a reward for sincerity, or good intentions.”

    In my corner of the world, I have not encountered a pastor with the sheer level of fame that these men had (and still have). But I’ve dealt with two of them that were quite influential in their own rights.

    Both of them have let me down in very serious ways. I trusted them, and later I now believe they were incredibly deceptive. I now want next to nothing to do with either of them. Ever.

    They were very convincing, had a sense of charm and ability to relate to and deal with people. And they came off as very sincere. THAT is usually the kick in the pants—-but they seemed so sincere! So real, so transparent. Loving the Lord, loving their calling (of being minsters). They come off with true humility. True love. A true heart for the Lord.

    But now I believe they were controlling, manipulative and very, very wrong in more ways that I can describe.

    As far as I know, they both preached the Gospel correctly—-in terms of how we are to be saved, and having a real relationship with the Lord. They did not preach or teach “religion” as the way to salvation. In fact, they were seemingly opposed to it.

    But bear in mind that it’s NOT just about preaching the Gospel as a way to salvation correctly. While that is 100% fundamental and in NO way should that be lowered in priority—-you have to minister to others (both men and women) with that clear, direct and Biblical message of salvation in mind.

    Anyone who truly understands the Gospel in its absolute perfect purity—–will understand that male and female believers are equal in the eyes of the Lord. One is not to be in supreme authority over the other, in or out of marriage.

    You do not abuse and then claim to be a believer, so you’re forgiven and “off the hook.”

    With that in mind, they will minister accordingly. When a man, woman or child comes to them with a narrative of abuse (ANY kind of abuse), they will not only listen—-but they will take some form of action.

    Perhaps they need to pray for wisdom first (always a good idea) but they will take it seriously.

    There was never a separate cross for the male gender, and one for the female gender. Since the latter tend to be portrayed as “especially” sinful (and they will bring up Eve to back it up), this would suggest that Jesus did not die as “thoroughly” for a woman’s sins as He did for a man’s sins.

    If that’s the case, women are truly never “born again.” And we never will be. We’re just too sinful that Jesus’s death wasn’t enough for us. No wonder we need a man to be “over us” to speak for Him—-to speak for us before Him.

    I am 100% born again in Him. I still retain my gender, but I 100% belong to Him as much as the next person claims to be. The Gospel message says that, and if you claim to preach and teach the true, pure Gospel, minister as if you really believe that.

    Many pastors DO NOT. IMO, they refuse to take off what I call their “cultural, social or environmental” glasses off. They see the world (and people) through eyes that are not fully focused on the Lord. So they refuse to get certain (and dangerous) ways of thinking out of their heads.

    One of those pastors DID supposedly take my reviler seriously. But he handled it all wrong and the trauma of it all had short and long term consequences for me. People treated me as though I had a disease; that there was something wrong with me. No doubt in my head, that my gender played a part in his decisions.

    He was such a popular man, though, and pretty influential in my life—-that it took years for me to fully realize that. And I dared not speak of it to anyone. The one time I did try, I got in trouble for putting down her “mentor” and for sounding bitter.

    I wasn’t surprised by the backlash especially to the Graham name. I read comment after comment about his love, compassion and fruit from his ministry. I’m not here to agree or disagree with what they say.

    I would just give the example of my OTHER pastor who was on a lower rung of popularity and influence than BG, but absolutely held a lot of power in my former church.

    Again, I don’t believe he preached the Gospel wrong at all, as the clip with BG showed some real problems. But with my former pastor—-that wasn’t the problem. It was how he led his personal life and led the church.

    This is painful to write.

    He was especially focused on foreign missions. One of the countries he was especially focused on is my country of origin. There is so much sickness, poverty, overall misery and worst of all—-children becoming orphans for one reason or another. So I was very drawn to this church, after being absent for a handful of years.

    He retired rather quickly in 2016. A good few months later we found out that he was a liar and a deceiver—-and a cheater (adultery).

    I think he was allowed to get away with all this for so long, because he was supposedly producing so much fruit, and doing so much “good” overseas. And in our community.

    Try to remember that people in other countries, and for believers to minister overseas—-are very dependent on others, like our church.

    In no way, shape or form—-is it Biblical to let someone commit even one act of evil for the sake of many others being helped. For so much “good” to be done for so many.

    Even if I was one of those persons being helped—my conscience would hopefully be aghast of someone getting hurt so that I could be blessed.

    It is hard to describe what he has left behind. He “spilled” a huge glass of milk and has left others to clean up his mess.

    I’m sure they are many in my former church or in other places he went to—-that forgive him personally, or still think of the best of him, or believe that he has repented.

    That’s not the case with me. He supposedly wrote a letter to the church, where it was read out loud, supposedly repenting. I don’t believe one word of it, but that it just me.

    He masterfully led a double life for so long, and got away with it for so long—-that I truly question the state of his heart now.

    I am sure that in his many years of ministry, people came to know the Lord through his preaching. Or, they were truly helped and blessed by him. In no way am I glossing any of that over.

    But again—-in the background, in the privacy of his personal life, in the darkness—he was hurting people. That man should never have been allowed to minister, until he was held accountable and faced the consequences of his deception. Regardless of how “good” he was at it, or how many people were drawn to him.

  5. jonahzsong

    L-RD Bless you and yours, Ms. Roberts. May He always keep you, and Shine upon you His ShalomPeace.

  6. Toby

    Barbara, I have been in two abusive marriages over a span of 3 decades. I had a decade-long break between them. The first one was to a hard out narcissist for over ten years, the second one was a short marriage to an insane borderline. The bait both times was that they appeared at first to be on fire Christian woman.

    With my first marriage, I was told I must stay in and endure, to let her take authority over me and God would sort her out. Eventually, after I had nothing left to give her emotionally and I had withdrawn emotionally from our family, she got into a lesbian relationship and left me.

    This is my point, both of my x wives believe they are Christian superstars. I’m am not so sure that these unsaved people are aware they are working for the enemy, they actually think they are better than the others in the church.

    I think this describes the situation pretty well:

    He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES.

    Little birds are most likely demons operating through unsaved flesh.
    I’m pretty sure the people they work through to predate on God’s children are completely convinced they are awesome Christians. I don’t think they are conscious of being satan’s helpers.

    I too have had enough of the abuse Christians have to endure with the ignorant and sometimes downright satanic endorsement of church leadership now, I can no longer ignore it.

    Thank you for caring for our brothers and sisters.

    • Hi Toby — welcome to the blog 🙂 I changed your screen name to protect your identity. And I removed the link to your website for the same reason.

      You said: “I’m am not so sure that these unsaved people are aware they are working for the enemy, they actually think they are better than the others in the church.”

      With your two ex wives, and with many other unsaved people who come across as ‘on fire Christians,’ it may well be true that they just think they are better than others in the church and they are unaware that they are working for the enemy.

      But there may also be some people in the church who are very aware that they are working for the enemy.

      Bottom line: whether abusers are aware or unaware that they are working for the enemy, their behaviour is VERY injurious to those they target.

      So a victim need not spend time trying to figure out how much their abuser is aware of… the victim is better off focusing on his or her own plans to resist/escape from the abuser and working out what to do for their own wellbeing and safety in the long term.

      We like to encourage new readers to check out our New Users’ Info page as it gives tips for how to guard your safety while commenting on the blog.

      And after reading the New Users’ Info page, you might like to look at our FAQ page.

  7. God-fearing mom

    When I read that quote I saw it as Billy Graham speaking about people who the Holy Spirit is calling out of false religion and into the truth of the gospel who are predestined to be saved. I suppose context would reveal what he meant.

  8. Upset

    I cannot believe you are judging Billy Graham. I can no long receive your news letter. I cannot allow myself to be subject to such lies. I will however pray for all that is involved with this. NO ONE has a right to judge another. When you point a finger at someone…remember you have 3 more pointing back at yourself.

    • Hi, Upset — you said ‘NO ONE has the right to judge another.”

      If no one has the right to judge another, then Paul had no right to judge Peter when Peter was acting hypocritically (Galatians 2).
      And John had no right to judge Diotrephes (3 John 1:9-10). And Paul had no right to judge Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim. 1:19-20). Nor should Paul have judged Hermogenes and Philetus (2 Tim. 1:15; 2 Tim. 2:16-17).

      And the saying, “when you point a finger at someone…remember you have 3 more pointing back at yourself,” is not in the Bible.

    • Some Anonymous Bloke

      If I may add to what Barbara wrote, you must contend with Christ’s declaration: ‘ “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” ’ (John 7:24, NASB). Hypocritical judgement is condemned by the Lord Jesus and his apostles, not judgement itself (see Matthew 7:1–6; Romans 2:1–3, 17–24).

      Finally, I would say that you must keep in mind that God does not show favouritism (Romans 2:11). Billy Graham is/was not above scrutiny. His teachings and practice must be examined in the light of scripture. Do take care that you do not elevate a teacher of God’s word so high that you implicitly trust everything s/he says as ‘the gospel truth’.

      • Krikit

        Completely agree with what Some Anonymouse Bloke stated.

        Being a former sexual assault target, and a former military and civilian police officer, I can say with complete confidence and accuracy that there is far more indecency and evil than the vast majority of church goers know about, want to know about, or would believe if they did know about it all.

        In general people think they know about how crazy, weird, and evil the world is. Think again.

  9. Abigail

    I wonder….this is just a made up analogy….what these super strict pastors would say to a husband who tells them his wife absolutely refuses to have sex with him. These men would have a lot of sympathy and instruct the wife that she is defrauding her husband of his marital rights. But let’s say she still refuses. Would they justify divorce???? That’s what an abusive man is like to his wife. He refuses to love and care for her.. ..a biblical RIGHT. Would they take the husband’s side and say it’s ok in this situation???

  10. Some Anonymous Bloke

    I hope that I shall not shrink back in the face of evil when I stand in its presence. When I see the cowardice, passivity and failure to act and do or speak what is right in others, I must not follow their example and allow myself to become that which I despise.

    ‘[F]or God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control’ (2 Timothy 1:7, RSV).

  11. Bitter Herbs

    Barbara,

    I’ve been lurking here for a long time and have truly appreciated everything that you and everyone else here (at one time including Mr. Crippen and twbtc) do for abuse survivors. Thank you for that effort and concern.

    I wanted to make a public response to the post on Light for Dark Times, because Mr. Crippen, Rachel Miller, and twbtc have made their feelings public. This post seems the best place to do it, since it references Mr. Crippen’s own concerns about Billy Graham’s theology.

    I’m standing with you, Barbara. You have every right to say whatever you want on your own twitter feed, to whomever you want. I believe that abuse survivors have the right to all the same content anyone else can access – that’s the flip side of the right to free speech; you also have the right to hear/read what everyone else is saying. We have the same brains and discernment from God that anyone else has. Saying that we’re too “weak” or “vulnerable” is insulting and echoes the kinds of things my abusive dad would say.

    I won’t go into the whole conspiracy theory side of that post here, since you don’t seem to want that here, except to say that I disagree with them on all of that too. I’d be open to emailing you about it. I don’t go on facebook, twitter, or anything else.

    Bitter Herbs

    • Thank you Bitter Herbs.

      I will be publishing a post in response to response to what Jeff Crippen and others are saying about me. It will probably will take me a few days to get it done. I like to mull over things and sleep on them before acting.

      In the meantime, it’s okay for anyone to ask me questions.

      I appreciate you commenting on the blog rather than on the facebook page.

  12. Linn

    Barb, I agree with bitter herbs. Praying for you! May the peace of God guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. Linn

    • Thanks Linn
      I am still working on a post that will respond to the issues Jeff Crippen raised in his post.

  13. Sister

    Barbara,

    I just submitted this as a comment to the Unholy Charade Blog on the post about not being affiliated with ACFJ.

    “I have a different perspective. I will submit this comment to ACFJ as well::

    Confronting Barbara’s sometimes rather harsh reactions to commenters is fair. However, you too have sometimes been harsh in responses. One time, I stated my resignation that I would likely never be able to find an evangelical church that gets it about abuse/that I would have to instigate a change. I asked you what a person could have said to the old you that didn’t get it about abuse that would make you receptive. Your initial answer was terse that you wouldn’t appreciate me coming in demanding change. Barbara had to jump in and translate what I was asking. You then indicated something to the effect that you suppose if you were looking for a church you would have a hard time finding one also.

    I must say I am disappointed/feel like your initial departure was less than honest, no different than the myriad of divisions/Pastor/Church or high profile church member separations I’ve seen over my life time.

    As far as the conspiracy theory allegations and your desire to no longer be mentioned on ACFJ, I am disappointed as well. Barbara is not promoting any such thing on ACFJ and she is entitled to her beliefs and free speech on her own personal sites. There was in fact a CIA mind control program in the 1950s called MKUltra. Google it. I did when I learned of this division. I’ll be honest with you, I’m not digging further about the ritual abuse, Satanism, etc. for 2 big reasons, I fear what horrific appalling stuff will show up if I Google it and in addition to subjecting myself to seeing such vile wicked depravity, I wonder if I could get arrested for looking at it (I do not want to look at pornography especially child pornography/abuse nor have it anywhere near my computer). You are condescendingly dismissive of Barbara’s beliefs on it. I don’t know if the stuff is true or not, but think about it, your whole ministry is about exposing/calling out evil.

    You, like me, were initially reluctant to believe it’s that bad in the church. We both thought pastors are just ignorant on abuse like we were, but once they were told about it, they would embrace change. But people don’t want to know/take it seriously. There’s a lot more evil in the church than we initially thought. (You get it now and shout it from the roof tops.) So if there’s depravity in the church, it stands to reason that it’s outside, too.

    Sex trafficking of women and children would not occur if there weren’t money in it. Who’s paying for it? Is it not evil people who pretend to be good? Do you think there’s no Satan worship? Is it really so inconceivable wicked people would participate in ritual abuse? I’m not saying this to convince you so much as to say Barbara’s entitled to her beliefs and you are out of line to belittle them.

    I hope Barbara keeps all of your posts and Megan’s and your sermons and the references to Sam Powell’s posts/sermons/tweets. There’s a wealth of information there and to delete them dries up a wealth of resources that have helped many and that can continue to do so. It’s like you are trying to erase history, assume ACFJ readers blindly believe what anyone tells them/are gullible/vulnerable to being led astray/don’t have discernment. Yet you openly admitted how much you learned from Lundy Bancroft and others who are not even Christian even though you disagree with him on his wacky spiritual beliefs.

    I think you don’t want to be associated with Barbara because you are embarrassed by her personal beliefs/tweets, etc./fear people will associate you with those beliefs. I have benefited from both yours and Sam’s writings. We all agree on the inerrancy of Scripture. I profoundly disagree with you that Scripture prescribes Headship and then there’s the whole Calvinism thing that I can’t stomach. I find that more in Sam’s writings than yours. Oh and I nearly completely shutdown when I read anything about the Catechisms, Church Fathers, etc… as they are not Scripture. Anyway, to make a short story long, I can read and benefit from yours and Sam’s posts, absorb what I agree with and discard what I don’t. Likewise, any one of us can do that with Barbara’s writings, too.

    I notice you seem to keep up with Julie Anne and Wartburg Watch, but you don’t list them on your blog roll. I suspect it’s because of theological differences. I have some with them as well, but I still benefit from them and recommend people read their blogs. I would love to worship with them despite theological differences we might have as they seem to have the heart of God in protecting the sheep and taking on wolves more than virtually anyone in the visible church.

    Anyway, to summarize, I’d like to see everything stay on ACFJ that’s there now and for Barbara not to be ridiculed, shamed, or minimized for posting her personal beliefs on her separate personal social accounts and for you to have a little faith in ACFJ readers that they aren’t vulnerable gullible people that will automatically believe anything that’s said to them.”

    [a few paragraph breaks added to enhance readability – Eds]

    • Gany T.

      Thank you, Sister, for your comment! It’s been over a month since this post was published, with a lot happening on social media regarding it, and I’ve wanted to respond, but was a bit overwhelmed by the time required to do so, especially with things being so charged. I also was waiting on Barb’s response here to the issues and accusations. So, just a few comments, now.

      Sister, I share you perspectives on these situations and your heart.

      Krikit (Sept. 23) – I have come, through the Holy Spirit’s opening my eyes and experiences, to strongly agree with your point about there being FAR more evil than what the vast majority of church goers know about.

      Bitter Herbs (Sept. 23) – Ditto to your comment about standing with Barb.

    • Lydia

      Sister,
      I really appreciate your comment here and had some things I wanted to say here and possibly at the Unholy Charade blog, but when I looked for your comment over there, I couldn’t find it. Have they not approved and published your comment?

      • Sister

        Lydia,

        I submitted it there & then here immediately afterward. They both had to go thru moderation. So far, Barbara posted it here and Jeff/TWBC have not posted it there. I will follow up.

      • Lydia

        Sister,

        I, too, was deeply disappointed in the explanation for Jeff’s departure last year. I accepted his explanation at face value here on this blog at the time and was saddened to lose him. Then last month when I read his blog and the comments there and even a Facebook discussion (not sure whose page) regarding his current lack of affiliation with ACFJ, somewhere I saw where he referenced why he left and it did not match up with what was said here last year. Of all people, those who follow this blog and comment here do not need more misleading, obfuscation, and cover-ups – for any motive. We have already been through that and need the truth. My heart sunk and I lost some respect for Jeff – not all, but a significant amount. I recently recommended his books and teaching to someone who needed a good resource, and this time I had to do so half-heartedly.

        I have also been disappointed to see how everyone piled on and went after Barbara. It was like a feeding frenzy. I don’t even know what to say about that.

        To be fair, right before that, I did notice something here that did bother me. I hope you don’t mind me saying so, Barbara. To quote from this post above, “I am certain that since writing his “Untouchables” post in 2012, Jeff Crippen’s respect for MacArthur has greatly diminished, and he may perhaps have zero respect for him now.” I was concerned about you suggesting the current state of Jeff’s respect for someone else without his permission to speak for him. His articles and blog posts and direct quotes from the past, however, are absolutely fair to use, in my opinion.

        In addition, I had an experience some time back when Jeff was still affiliated with ACFJ. I was using a different screen name then and have switched to try to lose my h/stbx/x (I am leaving the status of things vague to protect my identity at this time) in the event he figures out who I am. I have reason to suspect he found me here. Therefore, I can’t give the details, but I really wish I could. I asked an innocent question, looking for some wise counsel. In return I received a reply with innuendo (at the least) suggesting that there was an issue between my children and me that did not exist and bordering on blaming me for that issue because I had not left my husband. The language used was also very much like the abusive shepherds I had dealt with in the past. I was seriously triggered and had to take some time to recoup and then stand up for myself against Jeff. It was a learning experience and difficult and I no longer felt safe here.

        As to conspiracy, I am not qualified to speak. I do know that from my own experience with my h/stbx/x, that the divorce process, false witnesses, and more have exposed a level of conspiracy and corruption in my tiny little corner of the world that is astounding. It is powerful, deep, and absurd, and that is just to smear, harm, and control me and to control and distort my children. If evil is willing to go to that much effort to achieve destruction and ruination on this small of a scale, truly anything is possible at this point on the larger scale.

        Thank you, Barbara, for all the work you have put in and for the encouragement and support you have been to me and others.

      • Thank you Lydia.

        When I publish (hopefully in the next week) my response to the criticisms which led to the ‘feeding frenzy’, I will be addressing some of the points you’ve raised here.

        Thanks for being honest in expressing this concern you had about me :

        …I did notice something here that did bother me. I hope you don’t mind me saying so, Barbara. To quote from this post above, “I am certain that since writing his “Untouchables” post in 2012, Jeff Crippen’s respect for MacArthur has greatly diminished, and he may perhaps have zero respect for him now.” I was concerned about you suggesting the current state of Jeff’s respect for someone else without his permission to speak for him.

        I respect the way your ‘antenna’ are up to discern anything that might be dubious or might show evidence of poor judgement or poor character. Yes, it would have been wrong of me to speak with certainty about Jeff’s current view of MacArthur, if I had not checked with him to see what his current view is. That is why I used the qualifier ‘may’.

        However, I know that Jeff is aware of Jane Doe’s story of being mistreated by John MacArthur and MacArthur’s employees when she reported that she had been kidnapped and raped. So it is reasonable for me to surmise that Jeff’s opinion of MacArthur is even lower than it was in 2012.

        As evidence, I am pasting here an email I wrote to Jeff:

        On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Barbara Roberts barbara@notunderbondage.com wrote:

        Hi Jeff
        Since H and others are talking about this today, are you okay with me replying to H’s question by giving links to

        — the public FB group Doyouseeus, The Master’s University? and the FB tag #DoYouSeeUs which many people are using when they post or comment on their own FB pages about this story.
        — the twitter tags #DoYouSeeUs and #IbelieveJane

        I know you have announced your resignation but I don’t want to do this without your agreement as you are still moderating comments.

        Barb

        Jeff replied: “It’s fine with me. Yes”

      • Clarification
        I’ve just deleted the clarification I wrote a few minutes ago, because I realised it wasn’t accurate about the time line.

        Jeff’s resignation was announced on 25 Sept 2017

        Jeff continued to help moderate comments during October, to assist us in adjusting to new workload we would have. By “us” I mean TWBTC and myself.

        Jeff ceased moderating comments on ACFJ at the end of October 2017.

      • Lydia

        Barbara,

        Thank you for your response and comment. I appreciate you taking the time to explain further.

        I have been and am looking forward to the forthcoming response that you have been working on.

        I sincerely pray that God will continue to bless your efforts

      • Sister

        So, it’s been about 3 weeks since I submitted my original comment to both blogs. Jeff/TWBC never did post it. Not only that, he did not respond to my follow up one week later (2 weeks ago.) I wanted to know if they chose not to post it or if it got lost in cyberspace. I asked if they were choosing not to post it that he let me know and explain why he was not going to post it. I said he could tell me by posting a comment himself or sending me an email. Nada. Not one word.

        Ironic given his hypocritical post today: “Speak the Truth in Love” has come to mean “Just Keep Quiet About it.” I don’t know if the example he cited was about Barbara and ACFJ or not, but if so, he not only ignored what I had to say, but completely validated what I and the others said here. Case in point: “And the sin was no small thing – it was damaging many naive people.” (re: our comments about him assuming readers are gullible/vulnerable/dumb/no discernment).

        I’ve lost virtually all respect for him. I like his sermons and book(s) (the 2nd being virtually a repeat of the first). I’m glad God revealed to him the reality of wolves masquerading in Sheepskin and showed him abuse victims should be believed and have their divorces supported. I am glad he’s shouting that from the rooftops. But that’s where my respect for him begins and ends.

        It appears to me that it has become his niche now. It’s his platform to preach, write, and speak. The actual shepherding/counseling victims – I don’t think he wants to be bothered with it. No, actually, it’s even worse. He’s in no position to Shepherd/Counsel victims anyway because he’s not ready to humble himself and listen and learn.

        He is yet another example of why I am church homeless. If my moniker had been Brother rather than Sister and I was a male pastor from a church (that he could Google and verify), he would have responded. He lets women vote in his church now and thinks men and women should learn in church together not through segregated ministries. That’s a baby step in the right direction. However, he still does not respect women as having the same Holy Spirit/ability to discern. I had forgotten what “Follower from the Start” pointed out: “Crippen tellingly said way early in the blog that he has no respect for anyone who does not address him as ‘pastor’ like we live in a monarchy or patriarchy. Respectfully all we have to call him is Mr.”

        I whole heartedly agree. God and His Word are our Spiritual authority. It reminds me of the verse about not calling anyone Father, or Rabbi, or Leader, Teacher.

        Regarding Anna Wood, I had researched her a few years ago and found a comment she made in passing to someone who had complained to her about how Jeff had responded to them about a comment or email. She said that she and he had parted ways over some theological differences or something…I cannot find it again/see that her blogs are closed to the public now.

        Barbara, I just picked up on something you said to Follower from the Start:

        “Anna had prior experience with blogging, so she urged him to set up a blog to publicize the book. So together they set up the blog and were co-administrators. I began commenting at the blog, and emailing them with suggestions for how the blog could be improved. Within weeks they decided to take me onto the team and I became a co-administrator with them. Not very long after that, Anna decided to resign from the blog.”

        That’s very interesting because it shines a different light on the birth of ACFJ than what I remember from Jeff. Didn’t he maintain that it was because he wanted to start this as a result of all the emails he was getting from his sermon series on abuse?

        What he’s not grasping (or caring to grasp?) is that the biggest part of the ministry of ACFJ was not his posts, but the community created among commenters to the posts.

        I was very disappointed before he left when comments were restricted to only one day a week, particularly, one of the reasons given of wanting more time to write books. I commented back then that the books you both have written are good and I’ve recommended them, but that they are finished and new ones will not bring more ministry than what you have here.

        Thank you Barbara for not restricting commenting anymore. I know you are busy and i do look forward to your upcoming response/rebuttal to the things that have been said. Please continue to publish posts as time permits (it does not have to be on a certain schedule) and more importantly please continue with the comment section as you are doing. Again, that’s the best part of the ministry, the community it creates among survivors.

        Thanks again for all you do!

      • Hi Sister, you said

        If my moniker had been Brother rather than Sister and I was a male pastor from a church (that he could Google and verify), he would have responded.

        In my observation and experience, Jeff was dismissive of both males and females if he thought they were pests, nut cases, or abusers. So I don’t think he would have given your comments to Unholy Charade any different treatment if you were a man. Once he decided to not publish someone’s comments or to ban them, he would stay fast with that decision pretty much regardless. Sometimes I managed to persuade him to open his mind to the possibility that a given commenter did not have the motivations or character he had decided they had, but often my persuasive arguments only had a temporary effect on Jeff – they seldom stuck. He would eventually revert to his original view of that particular commenter.

        You also raised the thing that “Follower from the Start” had said: “Crippen tellingly said way early in the blog that he has no respect for anyone who does not address him as ‘pastor’…”

        I do not recall reading Jeff say that he has no respect for anyone who does not address him as pastor. Maybe he wrote that somewhere on the blog, but I don’t recall it.

        If he did say that somewhere on the ACFJ blog, I’ll like to be able to find the place where he said it.
        And if he did say it, that might help me understand a bit more of what has gone on.

        I know that many people in the church Jeff pastors at Tillamook refer to him as ‘pastor’. They might refer to him as ‘pastor’ to his face when addressing him, but I’ve also heard some of them refer to him as ‘pastor’ when speaking about him to me when Jeff was not present. In Australia, it is not normal for a member of church when talking to another member of that church, to use the word ‘pastor’ when referring to the pastor. It is normal for the church members to talk about their pastor as ‘John’ or “David’ or ‘Bill’ – or whatever the pastor’s first name is. That may be Australian informality, I don’t know. But it always seemed weird to me to hear his church members refer to him as ‘pastor’. And I always called him Jeff. So, if people think I was being disrespectful by referring to him as Jeff, I hope they will understand that I was just doing what Aussies do. 🙂

      • anonymous

        If Sister is correct, and Pastor Crippen’s “Speak the Truth in Love” post was about Barb, then that changes a lot.

        Indeed, it is the community of followers who comment on ACFJ that makes it really great, along with Barb’s posts which prompt and facilitate the comments and sharing in the first place.

        I don’t know what to think anymore, but I look forward to your response Barb.

    • anonymous

      I’m unsure of the exacts off-hand, but I think there was something in Pastor Crippen’s post about mind-control, and deemed the subject matter to be something of wild conspiracy theorists and/or gravely mentally ill people…..

      However, it is history. It is public record. Again, just now, CNN.com has an article reporting about the CIA and it’s exploration of medications ‘truth serums’ and enhanced interrogation techniques. They did experiments on unwilling, unknowing persons with LSD administered, and other kinds of things.

      … I don’t know about your Twitter account and whatnot else, Barb, … but there’s a lot of shady, crap that goes down and it gets covered up, the victims are silenced or dismissed as crazy and yet it happened.

      [some details removed by Eds]

      • Hi anonymous, and thanks for your comment.

        I will definitely be posting a new post in the next few days — it will be a video statement by me in which I will be responding to the things that Jeff Crippen and others have been saying about me. The video has been recorded, but is not yet public. So stay tuned!

        I appreciate your interest and diligence in researching stuff. I did not publish all the details in your comment; but I want you to know that I have read and assiduously researched those details you gave.

      • My post of the video has been delayed a bit for non-blog related reasons. Sorry.

  14. Gany T.

    This month marks my 2nd anniversary of finding ACFJ and God changing my life through it.

    During that time, I have recommended numerous posts by Jeff Crippen and Barb to others. Their message has impacted my little world in one of two ways: either being set free by the truth (such as the case for a couple of family members and friends), OR being offended and (mostly) glad for me to leave them (such as with my former church and a few ministries which I used to support). There haven’t been many middle ground reactions.

    Now, about the three high-profile, “Untouchable” preachers named in this post’s title, in the order in which my eyes were opened to them, largely due to ACFJ’s teachings –

    John MacArthur- A man whom I had esteemed and listened to on the radio since my teen years…until I learned more of what he actually taught about women, marriage/divorce, nouthetic counseling vs. all things “secular,” and (authoritarian) hierarchy in the church and home. Then came the Sept 2017 expose of how he and his top men had handled the horrific rape case of “Jane,” a student at his Master’s College. Since then, more and more keeps coming out about his empire, none of it pretty (covered esp. by The Wartburg Watch, Spiritual Sounding Board, and Marci Preheim).

    R.C. Sproul – Similar previous veneration by me; similar let down upon discovering he wouldn’t risk HIS own comfort, popularity, (and income), to stand with victimized wives and children, including his own daughter-in-law (now deceased) and grandchildren by not calling out his abusive, alcoholic son. I expressed my views at the post linked above written after his passing December 2017.

    Before hitting #3, let me say that it was ACFJ’s deep theological analyses of the above men’s teachings, the expose of how they and their graduates/followers implement those ideas in actual practice, and the impact on ACFJ’s readers’ lives (mine included), that brought me INSIGHT, FREEDOM, and HEALING. And…a few less “friends” and a church home, but I’m okay with all that now.

    Billy Graham – (Whew, THIS is a biggie, and not unexpectedly has drawn a lot of heat!) I highly esteemed him, too, and felt honored to be able to work at his crusade 30 years ago in my city. Yeah, his ecumenical push in our predominantly Catholic area concerned me a little initially, but I pushed down those feelings by justifying how wonderful and loving his Gospel message was. And…after years of the social loneliness and occasional mild persecution a member of the religious minority receives (i.e., Protestant and saved), it felt GOOD to finally be part of such a cooperative effort. (I’ve since learned that he encouraged Catholics who came forward and made a decision, to return to their Catholic churches, post-crusade. Same with Jewish people – come forward at the crusade, then directed back to their synagogue.)

    I think Barb’s and Sam Powell’s recent exposes of his message are sufficient to indict him as a false teacher. My two cents: I wonder how Graham’s “gospel message” equipped the many Catholic “converts” (and their children) in my predominantly Catholic city 30 years ago to deal with rampant priest pedophilia which we finally now know about and are litigating? I’d say that qualifies as an “abuser-friendly environment.”

    Now to the present with Jeff Crippen’s recent public actions and words –
    I am quite disappointed in Jeff and a few others. I unfollowed his blog, but just looked at comments for his post where he announced he was in NO way affiliated with ACFJ. A quick glance raises questions about some of his version of events and their timeline, as well as real concerns about several readers’ tone and accusations which passed the blog’s moderation. So far, we’ve only heard his side of things. I await Barb’s response.

    One last point: I guess the Prime Minister of Australia also has “jumped into the crazy conspiracy/Satanic ritual abuse business” when he specifically mentioned victims of ritual sexual abuse in his “National Apology to Victims and Survivors of Institutional Child Sexual Abuse” on October 22. (Oh yeah, and that was directly in response to “mentally unbalanced, conspiracy theorist,” Fiona Barnett’s request that he specifically mention Ritual Abuse.) That apology was epic and history-changing. I want to be on the right side of history, even if on the surface it initially seems outrageous and unbelievable. (Isn’t that the TYPICAL trump card for an abuser snowing his victims’ potential allies?)

    [Editor: delete this if you deem it wise.] It puzzles me that a victim advocate, pastor, AND former police officer near an area with HIGH human trafficking (Portland, OR) could so lightly dismiss victims’ accounts of such. And not be more curious about a high-profile preacher tweeting pictures of himself eating at a (vile) business which was investigated for trafficking previously? (Google Franklin Graham, Voodoo Donut, Portland, OR). Yes, the identity and behavior of Satan’s imposters in the visible church IS outrageous and hard to believe, but this isn’t news to victims of domestic violence within the ‘c’hurch.

    • Gany T.

      Oops! A typo. The story of “Jane’s” horrific rape while a student at The Master’s College was September 2017 (not 2016, as I had typed)

  15. Finding Answers

    Pondering what to write on this post for a long, long time.

    My only way of “voicing” visible support has been to keep plugging away on the ACFJ blog, rooting out the lies on which my own life has been built, replacing the “not me” voices with God’s.

    In writing, I omit many, many examples for my own safety and protection. Some examples I omit because they are outside the scope of the blog, though that does not mean they do not exist.

    I would write longer, but have encountered one of those emotional boundary blank spots….and the language to express my frustration at coping with these blanks spots is not a good match for the ACFJ blog.

    […..insert net-speak for invisible, voiceless support….]

    • 🙂 🙂 🙂

    • Thank you so much Finding Answers for your voiceless support.

      And thank you so much to all of you who have contacted me privately and who have posted supportively here in this thread.

      I do promise to respond as soon as possible. I am having to prioritise many things right now, but it is all going very well. The Lord is in charge of the timing…

      Love to you all.

      • Helovesme

        Looking forward to hearing from you, Barb! Good to hear from you!

  16. Linn

    Sister and Lydia, You said exactly what I was thinking about this whole situation! Thanks. Continued prayers, Barb, for strength and courage and to be engulfed with the love and peace of God Almighty. Linn

  17. Follower from the Start

    I have been following ACFJ since its beginning.

    I have noticed patterns of behavior by all: that you (Barb) could be ‘bullish and terse’ once in a while, but that Crippen was ‘very bullying, belittling even at times, terse, and unwilling to check out all resources’, as were Megan and some of the others like Pote. So I just kept reading & not interacting.

    What bothers me in all this is that Crippen and others are now behaving with what they decried since 2012. They can have their side blogs and interests, but Barb cannot, etc.

    So they, not you Barb, are destroying the legacy of ACFJ. Let them draw a line saying they no longer are a part of it. But they cannot do as Crippen falsely states ‘he has no part in ACFJ’. He can say he ‘no longer has a part’ – but he cannot erase history.

    To tear the blog apart and take Crippen’s submissions out is utterly ridiculous and is trying to erase what was done. You have done no harm to anyone. They on the other hand, are behaving just like abusers. Leave the blog alone so that people can read it and be helped by it. People, particularly women, are not dumb despite what Crippen repeatedly says in backhanded ways. Women can make up their own minds as to ‘non-salvation’ issues and go check out Crippen or Megan or you or whoever.

    In sum, people are not dumb despite what Crippen often says in so many words. And it is idiocy to try and erase history. The Bible as Crippen likes to quote also has people put up monuments to remember events by. Crippen was a part of the blog and you and that cannot be undone as hard as they might try to say so. You have not taken what Crippen or Megan wrote out of context, as far as I am aware. And they wrote it and put it out there. Now they want to pretend they didn’t because of current disagreements. Uggh.

    Cheers

    PS. As to Billy Graham, you are not wrong. If a person cares to do the research and go back decades, they can find out for themselves. Crippen even had a falling out with his co-author of his first book, a woman. Crippen tellingly said way early in the blog that he has no respect for anyone does not address him as ‘pastor’ like we live in a monarchy or patriarchy. Respectfully all we have to call him is Mr.

    • Hi, Follower From The Start

      I agree I have come across as bullish at times. I’m working to correct that. And I’ve got people who care about me, coaching me on that… so I’m not doing it in a vacuum.

      So I recognise that I have been bullish at times. I know it has hurt some people and I am sorry. My character defects are some of it, for sure, and I am working on that with the help of others. Some of it is related to the fact that I was under serious stress trying to manage things at the blog, but that in no way excuses me. And perhaps a bit of it is to do with the cultural differences between Australians and other countries. Aussies can often seem blunt and too direct to people from other English speaking countries; I’m learning more about these cultural differences all the time.

      Regarding the idea that “Jeff had a falling out with his co-author of his first book, a woman” – that woman was Anna Wood. Anna had discovered Jeff’s sermon series on Domestic Abuse (the psychology and methods of sin) at Sermon Audio and she found them so helpful that she emailed him to thank him. They started corresponding from there.

      As I understand it, Jeff was really the author of the book A Cry For Justice. He told me that he wrote it in about six weeks and with Anna’s permission he used her suggestions and some of her personal experience in the book to illustrate his points. And in gratitude for her encouragement and help, he named her as co-author.

      Anna had prior experience with blogging, so she urged him to set up a blog to publicize the book. So together they set up the blog and were co-administrators. I began commenting at the blog, and emailing them with suggestions for how the blog could be improved. Within weeks they decided to take me onto the team and I became a co-administrator with them. Not very long after that, Anna decided to resign from the blog. All she told me and Jeff was that the blog was not going in the direction she thought it would go, so she had decided to resign. I don’t think Jeff can be blamed for Anna’s decision to resign.

      • Now Free (formerly struggling to be free)

        I’ve already said in private to Barb what I think re all this as it’s really not for me to say in public. In my opinion I agree with all that has been said. I’ve just written on another post it takes a bigger man or woman to say sorry. It’s healthy and good. It’s refreshing actually to see.

        I have continued commenting. That’s my real answer to it all.

        Bottom line to it all is simple. We are not dumb as has been said lots. We may have been abused but we have most certainly not lost our marbles. Despite having that feeling sometimes.

        There is evil lurking all around us. There is extreme evil lurking all around us and I have seen it infiltrate churches and pastors fooled – and I mean real evil… satanic stuff. If truly saved, we have the spirit of God who indwells and He speaks or whispers to our souls so we can discern good from evil or what perhaps is not just right etc (if in tune to Him and not denying).

        Having seen some terrible evil and wicked acts (I can’t get the intensity into my words) in places you most definitely would not expect it to exist, nothing surprises me anymore.

        Yet to belittle me with just because I’ve been abused with as if I have no “tune in” to the spirit of God is wrong.

        I agree with that last post. Well said. I’m just wanting to say we all have our own particular beliefs on many things. I still have to see those come from Barb on here. I try not to bring my own into my posts. However, I expect if I do to either be challenged so I can correct or disagree or as I do just tend to listen and learn from others and can accept or reject.

        At the end of the day it does not change our salvation and I have not seen it change the message here at all. I have seen dealing and redrawing with it could very easily steer the site of its true purpose. That is my real reason for not commenting but I did right away to Barb personally.

        Barb knows I’m like her perhaps blunt, I call a spade a spade, but that does come from where I’m from and how we have had to be like that to move forward with life. I don’t come from Australia but I get you Barb. Still we do say things sometimes blunt and hurt. I agree with your response. We are only but human and sometimes things behind scenes taint our posts for want of a word. However as I say we are all inc in that as we comment here. We are open to open criticism – can accept apologise move on, or reject with explanation. Sometimes in Christian interdenominational circles with all sorts n shades of feelings and opinions we just agree to disagree or even like Paul and Barnabas we move on.

        Maybe that’s too simplistic but it’s how I see Christian life in the whole. Moreso today we need to be so in time with the spirit of God. He does not let us away with anything if we are out of turn. It’s not long before if not immediate he pulls us up.

        Keep posting guys on everything here I may add. I’m learning from you and been so blessed I found Barb and here as I honestly don’t know where I would be if I had not have in my search for answers. I don’t dare to think.

        Love you all!!!! Have a fantastic day!

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